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Forums - Gaming - Now that next gen is here, diminishing returns is a real problem

CGI-Quality said:
cmay227 said:
CGI-Quality said:

We also know that bottom pic won't be the best looking game the PS4's gonna get, don't we? 


Are you just trying to justify your purchase? You compare a 2006 game to a 2013 game? Whatever makes you feel good about your purchase.

I'm sure everyone is going "Damn killzone looks way better than resistance! This Gen blows away last gen!' I'm sure COD fans are comparing as we speak

COD 3 to COD ghosts. You cant compare launch titles. Most recent memory of games are whats compared. And yes we do know that wont be the best looking PS4 game. Why not compare the best PS3 game to Killzone?

It's pretty clear you missed the entire point of the post. When dealing with this topic, I compared like-for-like situations. Yes, you compare launch titles to see what things look like in the beginning. Why compared a late gen PS3 game to an early gen PS4 game? That doesn't make much sense. 

And, btw, I'm not sure how my comparsion says anything about a justified purchase.


Did the op compare launch titles? No

He compared BF4. No where in his op did he mention comparing launch titles.



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Zappykins said:

Yes, we are. It's not just more polygons, but different ways of processing that needs to change.

You have probably seen this before, but it shows well what is going on:

The last one is ten times more accurate!  That is a whole giant whollop of processing power to pull that off.  Just because next gen is @10 times more powerful, doesn't mean it's going to look 10 times better. 

Now we need changes to other things, like ray tracing and light scattering to really make things look more realistic (aka Avatar like graphics.)

Remember back in the PS2/Xbox days.  While the Xbox was like 2.5 more graphicly powerful than the PS2, they looked rather even on most games.

DirectX 12, and most likely the next big upgrade to OpenGL, are going to be a few more years away.  Then it will take developers a while to figure out how to use it.  Things are going to take a nice step this new gen.  But for more realism - which seems like what you might one, that will be at least another gen away.

Great post.  Worse yet, add another level on the end... going from 60K to 600K triangles.  Even less of a difference indeed.  

Developers are going to have to work in other areas (texture fidelity, lighting, etc.).  Going to be harder and harder for people to see the difference "jump" out at them as each generation goes on.



I agree his comparisons make no sense, just seemed when i saw your post

that you were trying to say the differences were massive. They are beginning to beginning, but not end to beginning. You get what I'm saying.

I get where your coming from. And agree. Just hate these early comparisons.



Next gen the big selling point will be 4K. Even if people don't see a big jump with their naked eye they still buy smartphones and tablets without really seeing a difference in the displays. Surely getting a new console every 7 years or so with no pricey contract can survive if getting a new tablet for $600 every other year is acceptable.




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Generational leaps in visuals have been getting progressively smaller since the 4th to 5th gen leap.



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Grandia said:
JoeTheBro said:
They say this every gen. Seriously I'll look through this site and find an example for you.


This is simply bullshit, I hear this dumb argument way too often. I remember the first screenshots of ps2 games in my  favorite PS1 gaming magazines and I was blown away of how awesome it looked, it was such a huge improvement right from the beginning and than the first xbox 360 graphics when I first saw Kameo with this bright beautiful environments, wather, greenery and all looked just amazing compared with xbox1 or ps2 games.

But the big difference now this time with the newest console generation in front is that we reached a level of detail with last generation almost photorealism,  graphics matched almost our real world and this is the point it is simply not possible to improve faces, environments,  weather effects and so on which look already almost like our real world. 

It was easy to improve ps1 grafics because they was so far away from looking like real but it is not easy to improve something which looks already damn close to the best possible the reality there is only room for minor improvements from now on.

Well it's pretty easy to prove you wrong with XBOX to 360 by doing simple forum searches. Tons of people are impressed sure, but lots aren't. Do you even remember all the XBOX 1.5 comments? Here's a thread about the original 360 reveal. Maybe it will enlighten you. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46948&page=5

Also I may need to remind you, but lots of people were blown away back in February and still are with exclusives. Are you not blown away by Ryse, Infamous, and the Order?

Plus I can only laugh when people say graphics can't get significantly better than this. That's just silly.



JoeTheBro said:
Grandia said:
JoeTheBro said:
They say this every gen. Seriously I'll look through this site and find an example for you.


This is simply bullshit, I hear this dumb argument way too often. I remember the first screenshots of ps2 games in my  favorite PS1 gaming magazines and I was blown away of how awesome it looked, it was such a huge improvement right from the beginning and than the first xbox 360 graphics when I first saw Kameo with this bright beautiful environments, wather, greenery and all looked just amazing compared with xbox1 or ps2 games.

But the big difference now this time with the newest console generation in front is that we reached a level of detail with last generation almost photorealism,  graphics matched almost our real world and this is the point it is simply not possible to improve faces, environments,  weather effects and so on which look already almost like our real world. 

It was easy to improve ps1 grafics because they was so far away from looking like real but it is not easy to improve something which looks already damn close to the best possible the reality there is only room for minor improvements from now on.

Well it's pretty easy to prove you wrong with XBOX to 360 by doing simple forum searches. Tons of people are impressed sure, but lots aren't. Do you even remember all the XBOX 1.5 comments? Here's a thread about the original 360 reveal. Maybe it will enlighten you. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46948&page=5

Also I may need to remind you, but lots of people were blown away back in February and still are with exclusives. Are you not blown away by Ryse, Infamous, and the Order?

Plus I can only laugh when people say graphics can't get significantly better than this. That's just silly.

what's funny is every gen I see people saying "graphics are soooooo much better on PC look at the jump these consoles need x amount of ram and x amount of processing power to be decent" then the consoles get it and make said jump and everyone says it not there!  Really?  Then why were you saying how much better PC looked for 5 years at least?




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I think some people are confused with diminishing returns and are pulling up examples of games that used beyond what was previously used to show improvement. Now I will try to explain this as best I can but some still may not get it.

Okay make a face using 5,000 polygons. Now make the same face only this time use another 5,000 for a total of 10,000. you just put in the same effort but got less results. Now make another and add another 5k to it for 15k. the results are even less dramatic.
You guys are comparing 20k polygon counts to 60k polygon counts and saying that diminishing returns aren't happening, yet your examples are in some cases contain 3-4 times more work put into them to get to those results.
Devs today are putting in far more work, for far less results.
I think most of you showing off pics of PS3/PS4 games need to start showing PS2 game pics as well but then again that will only make your point less valid to do so.
Lets look at Ryse. Originally going to use 150k polygon count. Cut to 90k and still looks amazing even though its using 60k less polygons than was originally announced. a 60k cut is more than some contained. That's enough cut from it to make another decently looking model.



ListerOfSmeg said:
I think some people are confused with diminishing returns and are pulling up examples of games that used beyond what was previously used to show improvement. Now I will try to explain this as best I can but some still may not get it.

Okay make a face using 5,000 polygons. Now make the same face only this time use another 5,000 for a total of 10,000. you just put in the same effort but got less results. Now make another and add another 5k to it for 15k. the results are even less dramatic.
You guys are comparing 20k polygon counts to 60k polygon counts and saying that diminishing returns aren't happening, yet your examples are in some cases contain 3-4 times more work put into them to get to those results.
Devs today are putting in far more work, for far less results.
I think most of you showing off pics of PS3/PS4 games need to start showing PS2 game pics as well but then again that will only make your point less valid to do so.
Lets look at Ryse. Originally going to use 150k polygon count. Cut to 90k and still looks amazing even though its using 60k less polygons than was originally announced. a 60k cut is more than some contained. That's enough cut from it to make another decently looking model.


But Polygons are not the only thing to take into account, Texture resolution, lighting, post process effects, shaders and Physics is where you will see the massive improvements. 



cmay227 said:
TheBlackNaruto said:
cmay227 said:
 


Are you just trying to justify your purchase? You compare a 2006 game to a 2013 game? Whatever makes you feel good about your purchase.

I'm sure everyone is going "Damn killzone looks way better than resistance! This Gen blows away last gen!' I'm sure COD fans are comparing as we speak

COD 3 to COD ghosts. You cant compare launch titles. Most recent memory of games are whats compared. And yes we do know that wont be the best looking PS4 game. Why not compare the best PS3 game to Killzone?

I thought comparing launch games made sense to see the difference. Seeing as that was the purpose from what I thought anyway. Even if you were to compare KZ3 to KZ:SF you can still see the difference. Is it HUGE no, but it is indeed clear and with more going on. Now over time it will widen and you will see an even bigger difference.

 

 

As far as the justifying his purchase not sure why you brought that up...seemed like a jab to me but that is just my opinion.

 

It's not a jab at any one! It's a question. Everybody has a reason

for thier next gen purchase. Have not even seen any of your posts in this thread.

This is not towards you and any way and I apologize if you took in a bad way.

Just trying to point out comparing a 6 yr old game to a new gen game is a incorrect

Way to judge. Most people don't look at it this way.

The biggest leap I can see in generations was the snes to n64.

As far as visuals. Every other generation was marginally better. If even that.


Oh no I didn't take it personal. It was just that NOWHERE in his post was there anything regarding the slightest bit of justifying a purchase. That's why I asked was it a jab. That's why I had to ask lol.

But of course the jump is not going to be HUGE. I think his point was that if you look back at the launch of each generation of course the jump did not seem big. But over time as developers got used to teh system things looked better. But I see you two already cameto an understanding so that ia ll good



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