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Forums - Microsoft - Regardless of what Iwata says, It is Microsoft who can not compete according to Sean Malstrom.

 

Can Microsoft compete ?

Agree 111 46.44%
 
Disagree 128 53.56%
 
Total:239
fatslob-:O on 14 October 2013
gergroy said:
fatslob-:O said:
gergroy said:

What does it matter, they are activist investors.  They invest in companies to try and break them apart or sell them off for a quick buck before they divest.  That is what they do.  

Also, just because they haven't broken even yet (which also may not be true) doesn't mean you want to sell the division off.  If a product is on an upward trend, like the xbox, then you keep at it.  The x1 is looking like the hardware will be sold at a profit from day 1, I don't see how these activist investors could convince the other 95% of the investors to sell off a division that is currently making a profit.  Even if historically the division hasn't been profitable, all that matters  is the current reality for investors.  

@Bold They haven't broke even yet.

You can clearly see this so no questions about it. 

The xbone is looking more and more likely to sell less the xbox 360 so I don't see the xbox divison going in an upward trend and that looks like the current reality.  

You know what is interesting about that graph that is somehow not sourced?  that the xbox division hasn't posted a loss in 5 years.  How is going from 5 years of loss to 5 years of profits not an upward trend?  Why would a company look a division that has sustainable profit and say, hey, lets cut this?  Sony lost even more over the same period, their losses are at around 5 billion.  Should Sony be looking to sell their gaming division?  Nintendo has lost money the last two years which is honestly worse than both microsoft and sony as they don't have any other divisions to support it.  Should nintendo be looking to sell out?  

Also, where do you get the x1 is looking like it will sell less than the 360?  It looks to easily outsell the 360 launch, Microsoft has even said the preorders are way ahead of the 360.  Also, the 360 launched TERRIBLY.   Microsoft certainly screwed up the reveal, but they have rebounded nicely.  With Nintendo screwing up their console, there is a big slice of marketshare out there up for grabs.  Sony will grab most of it I'm sure, but I have a hard time seeing microsoft doing worse than the 360 with the x1.  It looks like it will easily match if not better the 360 sales.  

http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years (Here you go.) 

It is an upward trend but at the same time that trend is likely to go away with the xbone.

@Bold If sony doesn't see any profits in the future then yeah they should sell their division and the same applies with nintendo too but this time that doesn't look likely since the PS most likely have the home console market under hold whereas nintendo will have the handheld market to sustain themselves. 

You do realize that a $500 price tag is a little excessive, right ? The xbone is not what'd I'd call a disruptive console like the wii was so no the xbone won't take wii market. 



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crissindahouse on 14 October 2013

i believe the 360 made a profit after all. if you look at all the financial results and think about how much microsoft lost with some stuff in the division the 360 is in (like zune), the profits of the 360 in the last years should be higher as the loss of the first years. without the stuff we know microsoft lost money with, the division should have made nice profits the last years.

and the 360 could also end in second place, microsoft just decided that a decent profit margin in the last years is more important as selling few million more consoles for a much lower profit. i think microsoft could have sold easily few million more consoles if they would have sacrificed profit. lower xbox live price, investment in few more 360 exclusives and stuff like that would have cost some hundred million but would have increased the sales.

but yes, nintendo was obviously much more successful this gen and also last gen financially and playstation is a stronger brand for gaming.

 

 

fatslob-:O said:

@Bold They haven't broke even yet.

You can clearly see this so no questions about it. 

The xbone is looking more and more likely to sell less the xbox 360 so I don't see the xbox divison going in an upward trend and that looks like the current reality.  


this graph also includes failures like zune, kin, payments for i believe skype (not 100% sure), windows phone and stuff like that. the profit of the 360 was probably much higher in the last years as this graph shows because it includes other losses and investments which are not part of the xbox brand.

and fiscal year 2013 had a profit of i believe ~850m which should be part of this graph.



PeterSilenced on 14 October 2013

It will be profitable from now on,the xbox one according to MS is predicted to break even on launch day



gergroy on 14 October 2013
fatslob-:O said:
gergroy said:

You know what is interesting about that graph that is somehow not sourced?  that the xbox division hasn't posted a loss in 5 years.  How is going from 5 years of loss to 5 years of profits not an upward trend?  Why would a company look a division that has sustainable profit and say, hey, lets cut this?  Sony lost even more over the same period, their losses are at around 5 billion.  Should Sony be looking to sell their gaming division?  Nintendo has lost money the last two years which is honestly worse than both microsoft and sony as they don't have any other divisions to support it.  Should nintendo be looking to sell out?  

Also, where do you get the x1 is looking like it will sell less than the 360?  It looks to easily outsell the 360 launch, Microsoft has even said the preorders are way ahead of the 360.  Also, the 360 launched TERRIBLY.   Microsoft certainly screwed up the reveal, but they have rebounded nicely.  With Nintendo screwing up their console, there is a big slice of marketshare out there up for grabs.  Sony will grab most of it I'm sure, but I have a hard time seeing microsoft doing worse than the 360 with the x1.  It looks like it will easily match if not better the 360 sales.  

http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years (Here you go.) 

It is an upward trend but at the same time that trend is likely to go away with the xbone.

@Bold If sony doesn't see any profits in the future then yeah they should sell their division and the same applies with nintendo too but this time that doesn't look likely since the PS most likely have the home console market under hold whereas nintendo will have the handheld market to sustain themselves. 

You do realize that a $500 price tag is a little excessive, right ? The xbone is not what'd I'd call a disruptive console like the wii was so no the xbone won't take wii market. 

ok, first of all they arent using the loss leading approach like they have in the past, each x1 system will break even or be sold at a profit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-will-be-break-even-or-profit-making-from-launch

so how does that make them look like they aren't going to be profitable.  We aren't talking revenue, we are talking profit aka the bottom line.  

@bold  So your personal opinion somehow translates into console sales?  360 wasn't a disruptive console and it still grew marketshare over the xbox.  The x1 preorder numbers are way above the 360's numbers.  It is a more established brand with established franchises.  It also will not stay at $500 forever.  The x1 will come with motion controls in the box, how is that not going to take some of the wii market?  Appeal to more casual gamers with kinect and media functions.  Honestly, it is probably the most disruptive of the three, but I agree it will not outsell the ps4.  But all the evidence out there now suggests it will easily match if not outsell the 360.  If you believe otherwise than you are just deluding yourself.  



fatslob-:O on 14 October 2013
gergroy said:
fatslob-:O said:
gergroy said:

You know what is interesting about that graph that is somehow not sourced?  that the xbox division hasn't posted a loss in 5 years.  How is going from 5 years of loss to 5 years of profits not an upward trend?  Why would a company look a division that has sustainable profit and say, hey, lets cut this?  Sony lost even more over the same period, their losses are at around 5 billion.  Should Sony be looking to sell their gaming division?  Nintendo has lost money the last two years which is honestly worse than both microsoft and sony as they don't have any other divisions to support it.  Should nintendo be looking to sell out?  

Also, where do you get the x1 is looking like it will sell less than the 360?  It looks to easily outsell the 360 launch, Microsoft has even said the preorders are way ahead of the 360.  Also, the 360 launched TERRIBLY.   Microsoft certainly screwed up the reveal, but they have rebounded nicely.  With Nintendo screwing up their console, there is a big slice of marketshare out there up for grabs.  Sony will grab most of it I'm sure, but I have a hard time seeing microsoft doing worse than the 360 with the x1.  It looks like it will easily match if not better the 360 sales.  

http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years (Here you go.) 

It is an upward trend but at the same time that trend is likely to go away with the xbone.

@Bold If sony doesn't see any profits in the future then yeah they should sell their division and the same applies with nintendo too but this time that doesn't look likely since the PS most likely have the home console market under hold whereas nintendo will have the handheld market to sustain themselves. 

You do realize that a $500 price tag is a little excessive, right ? The xbone is not what'd I'd call a disruptive console like the wii was so no the xbone won't take wii market. 

ok, first of all they are using the loss leading approach like they have in the past, each x1 system will break even or be sold at a profit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-will-be-break-even-or-profit-making-from-launch

so how does that make them look like they aren't going to be profitable.  We aren't talking revenue, we are talking profit aka the bottom line.  

@bold  So your personal opinion somehow translates into console sales?  360 wasn't a disruptive console and it still grew marketshare over the xbox.  The x1 preorder numbers are way above the 360's numbers.  It is a more established brand with established franchises.  It also will not stay at $500 forever.  The x1 will come with motion controls in the box, how is that not going to take some of the wii market?  Appeal to more casual gamers with kinect and media functions.  Honestly, it is probably the most disruptive of the three, but I agree it will not outsell the ps4.  But all the evidence out there now suggests it will easily match if not outsell the 360.  If you believe otherwise than you are just deluding yourself.  

My opinion ? LOL Haha that was hilarious. my personal "opinion" just so happens to say that consumers didn't agree with the PS3's price (And that's in good economic times.) so what makes you think that the xbone will sell better in the current condition it's in ?  Just so y'know xbox growth was due to sony failing. 

@Bold That is your opinion and the market just so happens to disagree. 

Just how successful was the kinect for the xbox 360 ? (Hint: It's game to hardware attach ratio was horrible.) How can it appeal to casual consumers when there's a $500 price tag ? You can not be disruptive with just hardware but to be successful the kinect 2 will need software in order to make it a worthwhile peripheral and microsoft didn't deliver on the first kinect. If I'm deluding myself then you must be under insanity because this gen is expected to retract not expand. ;P (The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. BTW the xbone looks like an HD triplet not a successor to the wii.)



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gergroy on 14 October 2013
fatslob-:O said:
gergroy said:

ok, first of all they are using the loss leading approach like they have in the past, each x1 system will break even or be sold at a profit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-will-be-break-even-or-profit-making-from-launch

so how does that make them look like they aren't going to be profitable.  We aren't talking revenue, we are talking profit aka the bottom line.  

@bold  So your personal opinion somehow translates into console sales?  360 wasn't a disruptive console and it still grew marketshare over the xbox.  The x1 preorder numbers are way above the 360's numbers.  It is a more established brand with established franchises.  It also will not stay at $500 forever.  The x1 will come with motion controls in the box, how is that not going to take some of the wii market?  Appeal to more casual gamers with kinect and media functions.  Honestly, it is probably the most disruptive of the three, but I agree it will not outsell the ps4.  But all the evidence out there now suggests it will easily match if not outsell the 360.  If you believe otherwise than you are just deluding yourself.  

My opinion ? LOL Haha that was hilarious. my personal "opinion" just so happens to say that consumers didn't agree with the PS3's price (And that's in good economic times.) so what makes you think that the xbone will sell better in the current condition it's in ?  Just so y'know xbox growth was due to sony failing. 

@Bold That is your opinion and the market just so happens to disagree. 

Just how successful was the kinect for the xbox 360 ? (Hint: It's game to hardware attach ratio was horrible.) How can it appeal to casual consumers when there's a $500 price tag ? You can not be disruptive with just hardware but to be successful the kinect 2 will need software in order to make it a worthwhile peripheral and microsoft didn't deliver on the first kinect. If I'm deluding myself then you must be under insanity because this gen is expected to retract not expand. ;P (The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. BTW the xbone looks like an HD triplet not a successor to the wii.)

ok, I'm going to bed after this so I will let you have the last word after this.

You seem to be comparing the x1 to the ps3, I'm comparing the x1 to the 360.  So what makes me think that the x1 will sell better under current conditions?

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/251152/xbox-one-preorders-ahead-of-xbox-360-at-same-time-period/

So, you don't think that xbox is a more established brand now with more established franchises than when the 360 came out?  growing from hardware that sold 25 million to over 80 million hasn't established the brand more versus then?  Microsoft doesn't have established franchises like halo, gears, crackdown, etc? How can the market disagree with a grown userbase and an increased amount of owned franchise ip's?   How can you say that is my opinion and not fact?  

As for your last paragraph, I never claimed that the x1 would be disruptive, but that it is probably the most disruptive of the three (basically that none of them are that disruptive).  Microsoft bundeling kinect with every x1 will probably help quite a bit with the software attach ratio you mention.  Also, who says next gen will retract?  you?  I haven't seen any reputable analysts say anything of the sort.  



Vasto on 14 October 2013

Only thing Microsoft needs to do is make its #1 focus to be games. Not media and not Kinect. If they do that they can compete with anybody out there. I have no idea why they don't understand this.



fatslob-:O on 14 October 2013
gergroy said:
fatslob-:O said:
gergroy said:

ok, first of all they are using the loss leading approach like they have in the past, each x1 system will break even or be sold at a profit.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-will-be-break-even-or-profit-making-from-launch

so how does that make them look like they aren't going to be profitable.  We aren't talking revenue, we are talking profit aka the bottom line.  

@bold  So your personal opinion somehow translates into console sales?  360 wasn't a disruptive console and it still grew marketshare over the xbox.  The x1 preorder numbers are way above the 360's numbers.  It is a more established brand with established franchises.  It also will not stay at $500 forever.  The x1 will come with motion controls in the box, how is that not going to take some of the wii market?  Appeal to more casual gamers with kinect and media functions.  Honestly, it is probably the most disruptive of the three, but I agree it will not outsell the ps4.  But all the evidence out there now suggests it will easily match if not outsell the 360.  If you believe otherwise than you are just deluding yourself.  

My opinion ? LOL Haha that was hilarious. my personal "opinion" just so happens to say that consumers didn't agree with the PS3's price (And that's in good economic times.) so what makes you think that the xbone will sell better in the current condition it's in ?  Just so y'know xbox growth was due to sony failing. 

@Bold That is your opinion and the market just so happens to disagree. 

Just how successful was the kinect for the xbox 360 ? (Hint: It's game to hardware attach ratio was horrible.) How can it appeal to casual consumers when there's a $500 price tag ? You can not be disruptive with just hardware but to be successful the kinect 2 will need software in order to make it a worthwhile peripheral and microsoft didn't deliver on the first kinect. If I'm deluding myself then you must be under insanity because this gen is expected to retract not expand. ;P (The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. BTW the xbone looks like an HD triplet not a successor to the wii.)

ok, I'm going to bed after this so I will let you have the last word after this.

You seem to be comparing the x1 to the ps3, I'm comparing the x1 to the 360.  So what makes me think that the x1 will sell better under current conditions?

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/251152/xbox-one-preorders-ahead-of-xbox-360-at-same-time-period/

So, you don't think that xbox is a more established brand now with more established franchises than when the 360 came out?  growing from hardware that sold 25 million to over 80 million hasn't established the brand more versus then?  Microsoft doesn't have established franchises like halo, gears, crackdown, etc? How can the market disagree with a grown userbase and an increased amount of owned franchise ip's?   How can you say that is my opinion and not fact?  

As for your last paragraph, I never claimed that the x1 would be disruptive, but that it is probably the most disruptive of the three (basically that none of them are that disruptive).  Microsoft bundeling kinect with every x1 will probably help quite a bit with the software attach ratio you mention.  Also, who says next gen will retract?  you?  I haven't seen any reputable analysts say anything of the sort.  

Did you mean more established than sony or nintendo cause that's how I interpreted it. BTW just because it has higher preorders than the xbox 360 doesn't mean that it will sell better than the xbox 360. The xbone isn't disruptive at all and that's because because microsoft hasn't committed to making any relevant games for the kinect 2. In fact I think it will become just as worthless as the wii u gamepad because after all if it has no software to support it's worth then it might as well not be there. I better be seeing the kinect only games selling well otherwise it will have not improved on the software attach ratio. The fact that the matter is none of the consoles are disruptive to the point that the market will grow and instead will have lost the audience because consumers from the wii will have being lost. 



ethomaz on 14 October 2013

I kind of agree with him.

Microsoft can't survive like Nintendo with low sales because the lack of a strong first party line up... so if they end with low sales this new gen then I'm sure it will be the last one.

People can say everything about Sony but the weakest console yet sold 100m units... so they are fine even in thw bad moments.

It is possible to PS4 to open a big gap this time making all the third-party support focus into it at the point to be irreversible for Xbone... and that can be the end of MS with a game business.



KingdomHeartsFan on 14 October 2013
pokoko said:
First, I think he misunderstood what Iwata meant. Iwata was talking about not trying to match strengths with Sony and Microsoft but to rather concentrate on their own strengths.

Second, he's somewhat right about how people perceive the Xbox brand, though that really isn't Microsoft's fault. People were getting a little crazy by assuming that the Xbox brand would grow market-share at the same rate as the 360. That was really unlikely from the very start.

In reality, the Xbox brand is still weaker, globally speaking, than the Playstation or the Nintendo brands. It's far easier to grow from zero than from a close third. It took everything lining up perfectly for the 360--the biggest FPS at the time, a year's head start, monumental mistakes from Sony--the odds were against the stars aligning perfectly once more. They're going to have to fight for every inch gained this generation.

Its great isn't it :)?  Now they have to be more competative and the winners are the gamers.