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Forums - Gaming - Women In Gaming - A very revealing podcast.

Ponyless on 08 October 2013
blackmagicwolf said:
Wow...the third.

I'm almost speechless, the amount of stupidity there was amazing. Now to be fair, you did make some good points. Kojima is the creator of MGS, and he has the right to make whoever he wants. And every single creator has the right to make whatever story, character, plot they want. BUT that doesn't mean WE, and by WE I mean the people who will buy these games, have to like it. We're the consumers, we make the games successes or failures, that's on us.

You're the second person to mention movies, I've already talked about one point you made so I'll go straight to the other. Who says we aren't up in arms about stupid stuff like that? Plenty of guys hate Twilight and that it made so much money and that it made girls slightly delusional in how they think romance should be. Not all, but a lot, I knew one person who took it way to far so I know it happened.

You keep saying we're few, we're not. It's not a minority thing. This isn't the only forum that talks about it. Or one country, or one race, it's all over.

And we're not trying to make the game industry "bow to our will" we know we can't do that, but can tell them how we feel and hope to broaden their perspective beyond sales figures and quarter goals. That's all we're doing. We're trying to show that there is a better way, a simpler way, and all it requires is a little tact.

Oh and as for your final comment. about how gaming is "male dominated" look up the numbers, female gamers across all genres is growing, they say it in the podcast even, female gamers play ALL games across ALL genres. That's the reason their can't truly be a "game for guys" or a "game for girls" because somewhere out there someone will tip toe to the other side to what the game is like.

Assassins Creed, Halo, Tomb Raider, Call of Duty, and on and on. No one genre is dominated by anyone anymore. We all play. That's why we're called gamers. Its non-gender specific.

Like you said Kojima created this series, no? Why isn't he allowed to make it as crazy as he wants? You said at the end of your second paragraph that as the consumer you don't have to like it but it really came off as if you're some what forced to actually buy it. If you think Kojima is sexist, or his character design is sexist....then don't buy it. Simple as that.

I asked you earlier if you played any games made by kojima and you said yes, you know that's the way kojima does his characters, look at raiden from MGS 2, look at mistral from Metal Gear Rising,  or Laughing Octopus from MGS 4. This is not a new thing for Kojima, he does this with most characters, female and male alike.



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bugrimmar on 08 October 2013
Ponyless said:
blackmagicwolf said:
Wow...the third.

I'm almost speechless, the amount of stupidity there was amazing. Now to be fair, you did make some good points. Kojima is the creator of MGS, and he has the right to make whoever he wants. And every single creator has the right to make whatever story, character, plot they want. BUT that doesn't mean WE, and by WE I mean the people who will buy these games, have to like it. We're the consumers, we make the games successes or failures, that's on us.

You're the second person to mention movies, I've already talked about one point you made so I'll go straight to the other. Who says we aren't up in arms about stupid stuff like that? Plenty of guys hate Twilight and that it made so much money and that it made girls slightly delusional in how they think romance should be. Not all, but a lot, I knew one person who took it way to far so I know it happened.

You keep saying we're few, we're not. It's not a minority thing. This isn't the only forum that talks about it. Or one country, or one race, it's all over.

And we're not trying to make the game industry "bow to our will" we know we can't do that, but can tell them how we feel and hope to broaden their perspective beyond sales figures and quarter goals. That's all we're doing. We're trying to show that there is a better way, a simpler way, and all it requires is a little tact.

Oh and as for your final comment. about how gaming is "male dominated" look up the numbers, female gamers across all genres is growing, they say it in the podcast even, female gamers play ALL games across ALL genres. That's the reason their can't truly be a "game for guys" or a "game for girls" because somewhere out there someone will tip toe to the other side to what the game is like.

Assassins Creed, Halo, Tomb Raider, Call of Duty, and on and on. No one genre is dominated by anyone anymore. We all play. That's why we're called gamers. Its non-gender specific.

Like you said Kojima created this series, no? Why isn't he allowed to make it as crazy as he wants? You said at the end of your second paragraph that as the consumer you don't have to like it but it really came off as if you're some what forced to actually buy it. If you think Kojima is sexist, or his character design is sexist....then don't buy it. Simple as that.

I asked you earlier if you played any games made by kojima and you said yes, you know that's the way kojima does his characters, look at raiden from MGS 2, look at mistral from Metal Gear Rising,  or Laughing Octopus from MGS 4. This is not a new thing for Kojima, he does this with most characters, female and male alike.


Right on. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!

Simple logic that minorities don't like to understand.



blackmagicwolf on 08 October 2013

bugrimmar: I was going to ignore you but I've decided to deny my "simple logic" and go ahead and go again. You're "logic" is that if I don't like a character in a game that I shouldn't buy it, why? Why should I let one character dampen my experience?

"But isn't that what you've been saying this entire time?" No, it's not. I'm saying that these characters devalue the game, not make it unplayable. I (and others) are saying that they don't NEED these kinds of characters to make the game better. Just make great characters, it's been done before! Let them speak for themselves, let them show us how awesome they are, there is no need to rely on their looks to sell us the game.

If a character is drawn and turns out beautiful then great. But there's no need to overhaul the model to "please" gamers, many of us (bugrimmar is obviously not part of this) don't need that to enjoy the game. We (again apparently not bugrimmar) want to play games to enjoy them. Whether it's action, RPG, shooter, fighter, arcade etc. If the game is good we'll tell them, we're gamers, we're not shy about telling people how we feel.

But it's when stuff like this happens that makes us go "why?" Because it makes no sense.

Ponyless: Never played Rising or MSG4 but you're point is well made. He does do this a lot, but I keep bringing him up because of his statement about Quiet and the need to make her "erotic", and like I've said in previous comments Kojima isn't the only one to do this. He's just one of the better examples.



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bugrimmar on 08 October 2013
blackmagicwolf said:
bugrimmar: I was going to ignore you but I've decided to deny my "simple logic" and go ahead and go again. You're "logic" is that if I don't like a character in a game that I shouldn't buy it, why? Why should I let one character dampen my experience?

"But isn't that what you've been saying this entire time?" No, it's not. I'm saying that these characters devalue the game, not make it unplayable. I (and others) are saying that they don't NEED these kinds of characters to make the game better. Just make great characters, it's been done before! Let them speak for themselves, let them show us how awesome they are, there is no need to rely on their looks to sell us the game.

If a character is drawn and turns out beautiful then great. But there's no need to overhaul the model to "please" gamers, many of us (bugrimmar is obviously not part of this) don't need that to enjoy the game. We (again apparently not bugrimmar) want to play games to enjoy them. Whether it's action, RPG, shooter, fighter, arcade etc. If the game is good we'll tell them, we're gamers, we're not shy about telling people how we feel.

But it's when stuff like this happens that makes us go "why?" Because it makes no sense.

Ponyless: Never played Rising or MSG4 but you're point is well made. He does do this a lot, but I keep bringing him up because of his statement about Quiet and the need to make her "erotic", and like I've said in previous comments Kojima isn't the only one to do this. He's just one of the better examples.


So now it's all about experiencing the games right? Awhile ago I could've sworn it was all about equality. Hmm, maybe you realized that things can't be equal in a playground that is dominated by one sex while the other sex only plays in a small part of the yard.

The point is, stop whining about characters being sexualized. Just like you said, "it doesn't matter" anyway right? Then why complain? Just because it makes no sense in your mind? Well, sexualizing females in games does make sense. It looks nice. That's enough sense for me. And if it really doesn't matter to you and all you care about is the gaming experience, then shut the hell up about equality then.

I'm overly mad about this issue because I hate it when minorities whine about nonsense, and then they admit that they don't really care about it. The developers are professionals. They understand what sells in the market. So obviously, this trend continues because it sells. So that means, I'm not alone in liking sexy characters. When you say "we", that probably includes your minority that plays in the small pond. Try not to involve the REAL majority who buys the games consistently. Have you ever seen a study that said "SEXUALIZING FEMALES LOWERS SALES?" No. Because the truth is the exact opposite.

Accept it. You've run aground with your logic. "I want equality among males and females in games! But I only care about the gameplay and it doesn't matter if there are sexy characters! I don't need it!" What the hell is that? You're just nitpicking on what other people like, and you can't stand it that a game wasn't tailored to your exact taste.

Again, if you don't like the game, don't buy it. If you're so strongly against sexualizing characters, then don't support the developer. if you don't need a certain character to enjoy your game experience while others do, then ignore the character, let others enjoy him/her, and you go about your busness. If you don't really care about the issue, then shut the hell up. That's as basic as I can put it.



Frequency on 08 October 2013

i was going to write a long post about this, from my own perspective (as a woman) but i don't really see a point as my view differs from that of the general "trend" these days to pin labels on to things such as sexist, racist etc.
And since it differs, it is ignored by women in general as women don't want other women who's views don't mix well with theirs, ruining their arguments.
Essentially, I am ignored to suit their needs, but bundled in with their "women in general" statements when they want to make bold overreaching statements.

In short, all that is happening is that freedom of creation is being destroyed.



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Dr.Grass on 08 October 2013

So tired of this shit.

My friends are making a game, http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-24-broforce-is-brutal-brotastic , and even though it's called BROforce, the regularly receive emails from vocal females demanding female characters in the game.

All the devs are male. All the gamers that are playing and corresponding (about gameplay!) have been male. The target audience is male. That's just how it is.

Why aren't there women making their own friggin games? Then they could do what they want. Fact is that there is no male agenda in gaming, things have just developed this way because of the target demographic. Which is (overwhelmingly) male.

People like making a fuss about nothing.

Might as well go an a rampage if your a black gamer about how blacks are portrayed. With regards to this, what about hollywood then?

Nah, just a waste of time. Let them squeel.



bugrimmar on 08 October 2013
Dr.Grass said:
So tired of this shit.

My friends are making a game, http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-24-broforce-is-brutal-brotastic , and even though it's called BROforce, the regularly receive emails from vocal females demanding female characters in the game.

All the devs are male. All the gamers that are playing and corresponding (about gameplay!) have been male. The target audience is male. That's just how it is.

Why aren't there women making their own friggin games? Then they could do what they want. Fact is that there is no male agenda in gaming, things have just developed this way because of the target demographic. Which is (overwhelmingly) male.

People like making a fuss about nothing.

Might as well go an a rampage if your a black gamer about how blacks are portrayed. With regards to this, what about hollywood then?

Nah, just a waste of time. Let them squeel.


Hell yeah. Glad that more than one person on this topic is making sense. Stupid to complain about stuff that does not pertain to them.



outlawauron on 08 October 2013
Dr.Grass said:
So tired of this shit.

My friends are making a game, http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-24-broforce-is-brutal-brotastic , and even though it's called BROforce, the regularly receive emails from vocal females demanding female characters in the game.

Wah? Why does it matter what gender the characters are?

Did people get their panties in a wad because the only playable characters in X-2 were female?



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Dr.Grass on 08 October 2013
outlawauron said:
Dr.Grass said:
So tired of this shit.

My friends are making a game, http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-24-broforce-is-brutal-brotastic , and even though it's called BROforce, the regularly receive emails from vocal females demanding female characters in the game.

Wah? Why does it matter what gender the characters are?

Did people get their panties in a wad because the only playable characters in X-2 were female?

This is why I'm so tired of this shit.

All I can say is that some people just need to grow some balls.



Frequency on 08 October 2013

Its a generation of entitled fools