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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers

ethomaz:

Every single pixel that pops-up at screen is handled by the GPU. The way you are arguing seems that the PS4 gives total control to any game all the time (close to what the 360&PS3 do today).

How will PS4 record 15min gameplay?
How will PS4 suspend game and swap to menu?
How will PS4 download games at beckground?

I can´t belive Sony is building a single task experience with the PS4. If so, the X1 is de facto a far superior tech.



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ethomaz said:
The PS4 OS didn't use GPU hardware accelaration like the Windows uses in Xbone... when you snap a Metro app in Xbone it uses some 3D effects to do that like any MS OS after Vista... you can rearch that the MS Metro UI is a hardware-accelerated GPU based UI.

PS4 OS lacks the snap feature... the OS is flat and simple without any 3D feature.

Apps, backgound process and everything else runs better on CPU... so why Sony will put these process into GPU? To run worst? I think any little knowledge about OS resources shows that.

And the CPU clock in PS4 was never confirmed... anyway I guess (that now a guess) the CPU in PS4 is more free than Xbone CPU even with lower clock because the Xbone needs to do a lot of calculations into CPU for OS and Kinect features... PS4 don't.

About the Audio features... both needs GPU for Raycasting Audio... and some little effects in audio will be done on CPU and not GPU.

GPU is 100% for game developers do what they want on PS4.

And you want backup? Cerny himself said "Developers can choose how to use all the 18CUs inside PS4"... no OS reservation.

@Bolded:  This does not mean the PS4 OS does not use GPU acceleration.  Any OS task where you want parallazation can use GPGPU.  In most scenarios the GPU cores are used like co-processors to the OS.  When performing any real parallel process like multi-tasking, the GPU can be used to accelerate those task.  The reason MS is using GPU resources is not only because they have fancy effects going on but instead it helps with multi-tasking between multiple apps and the game code.

@ 2nd Bolded: How do you know this.  There is nothing from Sony on what their OS do or do not do, or what resources it uses to perform its operations.  When the PSeye is hooked up, does it have a processor in the camera because if not, I would believe the OS needs to handle the video.  When performing voice navigation which Sony stated the PS4 will do, what do you think will be processing the voice.  When doing motion navigation, how is that data processed.  Face recognition is also done by the PS4, what does that.

@3rd Bolded: pure opinion.  You have no ideal what is all GPU. 

Are you making the clam tht the PS4 cannot do GPU acceleration.  Are you stating that the PS4 will not multitask anything and it will basically be like switching a on a light.  



Dark_Feanor said:
ethomaz:

Every single pixel that pops-up at screen is handled by the GPU. The way you are arguing seems that the PS4 gives total control to any game all the time (close to what the 360&PS3 do today).

How will PS4 record 15min gameplay?

Sony put in a dedicated video processor to record video

How will PS4 suspend game and swap to menu?

Sony put in an ARM based processor for OS

How will PS4 download games at beckground?

That same ARM processor is what downloads games in the background, also downloads games when it's in standby

I can´t belive Sony is building a single task experience with the PS4. If so, the X1 is de facto a far superior tech.

Any other questions?



Hmm 10% of the GPU allocated for Kinect and snap is a pretty large overheard on the system. I would have thought Kinect - having it own processor and the CPU would handle those. Oh well.. any optimization is always welcome.

And Machiavellian. Looks at the guys writing, his bias towards Xbox is quite obvious.



Dark_Feanor said:
ethomaz:

Every single pixel that pops-up at screen is handled by the GPU. The way you are arguing seems that the PS4 gives total control to any game all the time (close to what the 360&PS3 do today).

How will PS4 record 15min gameplay?
How will PS4 suspend game and swap to menu?
How will PS4 download games at beckground?

I can´t belive Sony is building a single task experience with the PS4. If so, the X1 is de facto a far superior tech.

Yeap... when you are saying the game running everything single pixels is using the GameOS (PS4 didn't have a GameOS but we will call it that from now)... when you shift to the AppOS in PS4 it pause the GameOS and release resoruces for the AppOS so the AppOS when in use can use the GPU but when the GameOS is running 100% is reserved to it.

Xbone not... the AppOS alreasy uses 10% of the GPU everytime and you run both at the same time... there is no pause or change in resources because the AppOS needs to use GPU to run... so GameOS can use only 90% of the GPU today.

That's the difference... now your questions.

How will PS4 record 15min gameplay? Cerny said this feature is free up of any system resource... it don't use CPU, GPU or SysMemory. It is in a Gamasutra interview with Cerny I will find it to you late.... I guess there is a dedicated processor to do that task.

How will PS4 suspend game and swap to menu? PS4 reserves two CPU cores (rumors) and ~2GB RAM (rumors) to run the AppOS while your are playing games... the AppOS gets in some mix of suspended mode because it stop most of the OS processing but continue to run some apps like the CrossGame Voice Chat... when you swap AppOS the PS4 pauses the game and release more resources for the GameOS, when you go back to GameOS it enter in this mixed supended mode and the GameOS have full access to it resources again.

How will PS4 download games at beckground? There is ARM dedicated processor for background tasks.

 

6-core CPUs, 100% GPU and ~6GB of RAM is all reserved for Games only.



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Machiavellian said:

@Bolded:  This does not mean the PS4 OS does not use GPU acceleration.  Any OS task where you want parallazation can use GPGPU.  In most scenarios the GPU cores are used like co-processors to the OS.  When performing any real parallel process like multi-tasking, the GPU can be used to accelerate those task.  The reason MS is using GPU resources is not only because they have fancy effects going on but instead it helps with multi-tasking between multiple apps and the game code.

@ 2nd Bolded: How do you know this.  There is nothing from Sony on what their OS do or do not do, or what resources it uses to perform its operations.  When the PSeye is hooked up, does it have a processor in the camera because if not, I would believe the OS needs to handle the video.  When performing voice navigation which Sony stated the PS4 will do, what do you think will be processing the voice.  When doing motion navigation, how is that data processed.  Face recognition is also done by the PS4, what does that.

@3rd Bolded: pure opinion.  You have no ideal what is all GPU.

Are you making the clam tht the PS4 cannot do GPU acceleration.  Are you stating that the PS4 will not multitask anything and it will basically be like switching a on a light.  

Quote me latter for TRUTHFACT... you will start to belive more in my person and stop to try to create theories from nonwhere.

Again..

FACT: PS4 reserves some CPU cores and RAM for OS... everything else is free for Games.



hinch said:

Hmm 10% of the GPU allocated for Kinect and snap is a pretty large overheard on the system. I would have thought Kinect - having it own processor and the CPU would handle those. Oh well.. any optimization is always welcome.

And Machiavellian. Looks at the guys writing, his bias towards Xbox is quite obvious.

Is it.  I can show you within that same interview where he praises the PS4 design.  Actually there are a few articles where he praises the PS4 design and gives MS hell for theirs.  Like I stated, people read what they want.  One negative point and someone is pissing all over my hardware choice while they totally forget all the praise mentioned before that one line.



Machiavellian said:
MonstaMack said:
So 10% reserved for the Kinect/Snap OS. How much does Sony reserve for power for OS?
And yet another Leadbetter article.

I love MS, but c'mon, why does it always have to be this guy doing it? Someone else please. No one on GAF trusts this guy.

Its interesting that no one on GAF trust this guy because if you read the stuff he has reported, he leaves the opinion part out and just give the details or ask the questions.  This article is a prime example.  No opinion parts really, just questions and letting the engineers tell their story.  I find the article a very interesting read since it gives a good understanding of MS design decisions.

If I remember rightly, these two articles are why he was banned from GAF:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-xbox-one-multi-platform-games-compete-with-ps4

Which was a horrible attempt at comparing the graphics chips in both machines. His choice of GPUs was flawed and he failed to mention ROPs in that article. It was amateurish at best.

and this one:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-system-software-memory

which was disproven by developers on Gaf and Twitter.

It only takes a couple of examples of incompetence to ruin your reputation it seems.

The headline on this article is a bit of spin, but I assume that was an editorial decision to get hits.



@Dark_Feanor

I found the Gamasutra article... I will find the other about the Video Record feature not using the CPU, GPU or memory resources.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3

My mistake the Cross Game Audio Chat won't use OS resouces... it uses it own dedicated Audio Chip.

 

Freeing Up Resources: The PS4's Dedicated Units

Another thing the PlayStation 4 team did to increase the flexibility of the console is to put many of its basic functions on dedicated units on the board -- that way, you don't have to allocate resources to handling these things.

"The reason we use dedicated units is it means the overhead as far as games are concerned is very low," said Cerny. "It also establishes a baseline that we can use in our user experience."

"For example, by having the hardware dedicated unit for audio, that means we can support audio chat without the games needing to dedicate any significant resources to them. The same thing for compression and decompression of video." The audio unit also handles decompression of "a very large number" of MP3 streams for in-game audio, Cerny added.

At the New York City unveiling of the system, Cerny talked about PlayGo, the system by which the console will download digital titles even as they're being played.

"The concept is you download just a portion of the overall data and start your play session, and you continue your play session as the rest downloads in the background," he explained to Gamasutra.

However, PlayGo "is two separate linked systems," Cerny said. The other is to do with the Blu-ray drive -- to help with the fact that it is, essentially, a bit slow for next-gen games.

"So, what we do as the game accesses the Blu-ray disc, is we take any data that was accessed and we put it on the hard drive. And if then if there is idle time, we go ahead and copy the remaining data to the hard drive. And what that means is after an hour or two, the game is on the hard drive, and you have access, you have dramatically quicker loading... And you have the ability to do some truly high-speed streaming."

To further help the Blu-ray along, the system also has a unit to support zlib decompression -- so developers can confidently compress all of their game data and know the system will decode it on the fly. "As a minimum, our vision is that our games are zlib compressed on media," said Cerny.

There's also another custom chip to put the system in a low-power mode for background downloads. "To make it a more green hardware, which is very important for us, we have the ability to turn off the main power in the system and just have power to that secondary custom chip, system memory, and I/O -- hard drive, Ethernet. So that allows background downloads to happen in a very low power scenario. We also have the ability to shut off everything except power to the RAMs, which is how we leave your game session suspended."



Machiavellian said:
hinch said:

Hmm 10% of the GPU allocated for Kinect and snap is a pretty large overheard on the system. I would have thought Kinect - having it own processor and the CPU would handle those. Oh well.. any optimization is always welcome.

And Machiavellian. Looks at the guys writing, his bias towards Xbox is quite obvious.

Is it.  I can show you within that same interview where he praises the PS4 design.  Actually there are a few articles where he praises the PS4 design and gives MS hell for theirs.  Like I stated, people read what they want.  One negative point and someone is pissing all over my hardware choice while their totally forget all the praise mentioned before that one line.

Here are all of his articles. No bias at all. None.