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Forums - Politics - Is socialism endan^gered in The United States?

haxxiy said:
nuckles87 said:
So in other words, we all enjoy the benefits of socialism every day: the roads we use, the schools that teach us, the military that protects us...


Do not mistake social contract for social solidarity. The notion of socialism is closer to the later rather than the former.

I don't know where this notion that anything the State does is automatically socialism as opposed to, well, statism. That's close to doublespeak IMO.


There's always an overlap between many things politics.  I'll just leave this here as to make my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism



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DonFerrari said:
MDMAlliance said:

If you're arguing about pure Socialism, then I don't think there are any States that are.

However, whether or not you know it, public education (free or subsidized) is a socialistic idea.  Same for anything the government helps pay for that can be used by anyone.  Roads, schools, etc.  In a capitalistic state, the corporations would be the ones paying for it.  Both of these things exist in the United States.  The government pays for the roads and maintenance, while they will often times hire private companies to do the work.  These are things that Socialism does.  The reason it counts as Socialism is because your taxes go to pay for it.   The government makes money only from taxes.

I myself think that there isn't anything the government does that a private company can't do better... and public education and infraestructure are things that preced socialism (but I won't dewell in that to far), and you are still confunding pure free initiative vs estatism with capitalism vs socialism. But that don't matter, as far as we agree that "pure" socialism is a cancer and most of its avocates have hidden agenda I'm fine. I'm not libertarian or total free market so won't discuss against you that some services can't be left for private companies because they only do profitable investiments, and there are things that don't profit or that for it to be profitable much wouldn't have acess...

But food stamps aren't a thing i approve in the way it's applied (at least here) there is no return, just "donation of taxes" to the alleged poor... but initiatives as the infraestructure being built with government funds employing people in dire needs I can support because I see a win situation for everybody (and I also see the benefits of education support, but not always done right)... but I simply can't acept most of the "rights" people claim are needed support from tax money.


bold: I'm not confusing anything with anything, as I said before.  Those two things, "free initiative" and "estatism", aren't a thing.  I think you mean "anarchy vs statism".  

I also do not think pure socialisim is a "cancer."  For one, it doesn't exist.  Another thing is that no one explained why it is, only made assumptions.

Also, your last paragraph, that only encompasses a very small part of Socialism.  Free Public Education funded by the State is Socialistic.  The reason why is because people pay taxes, and those taxes go to funding that school, and that school is in turn something that the public can use without charge (or at least not the full charge).  That is at the root of what Socialism is.  

You are right, though.  Theoretically, a private company has a much higher potential than the government in pretty much anything.  However, that doesn't mean it's true in the real world.  



MDMAlliance said:
Marks said:
Is socialism endangered? Haha are you kidding? Freedom and liberty are endangered, not socialism. It's easier to sign up for welfare than it is to start your own business in America.


It almost sounds like you're saying "Socialism" and "Freedom and liberty" are opposites.  Also, starting your own business isn't harder to do that signing up for welfare.  You can start your own business pretty easily.


Yeah I actually am saying that Socialism and freedom are opposites. Would you disagree? I would argue that freedom and equality are mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both. 

And I don't know about that, I was definitely exaggerating. But I can tell you it's illegal for a little kid to open up a lemonade stand in the United States. You have to jump through hoops to follow the thousands of regulations that businesses must follow nowadays. 



Marks said:
MDMAlliance said:
Marks said:
Is socialism endangered? Haha are you kidding? Freedom and liberty are endangered, not socialism. It's easier to sign up for welfare than it is to start your own business in America.


It almost sounds like you're saying "Socialism" and "Freedom and liberty" are opposites.  Also, starting your own business isn't harder to do that signing up for welfare.  You can start your own business pretty easily.


Yeah I actually am saying that Socialism and freedom are opposites. Would you disagree? I would argue that freedom and equality are mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both. 

And I don't know about that, I was definitely exaggerating. But I can tell you it's illegal for a little kid to open up a lemonade stand in the United States. You have to jump through hoops to follow the thousands of regulations that businesses must follow nowadays. 


A kid can't sign up for welfare either.  My parents own a business, and they say signing up for Welfare is difficult (but the business part isn't so difficult).  It depends on what your business is.  There are a few ways to run your business. 

edit: I forgot to address your first paragraph.  Socialism isn't the same thing as equality, and I do not think freedom and equality are mutually exclusive anyway.  They may have some contradictions, but they are not opposites.



spurgeonryan said:
fatslob-:O said:
spurgeonryan said:

I do not care about party fighting...or party rocking :P...But I do think this program is the least of our countries worries. Creates tons of jobs, plus all the taxes that comes from it probably makes the program not that bad for us. Plus it is nice to allow people to eat food. I am sure they could tweek the program some to ban some foods so that obesity goes down in our country, but other than that, just leave it.

You have to realize that the US is broke. This ain't the 1950's america where the american dream was easily achieveable this is a recession where cutting costs is the best idea in this case.

Are we still spending 1 trillion a year on Defense and things to do with defense?

I would rather the kid down the street get healthcare and food than buy yet another fence for some guy in Afghanistan or another road for them to blow up a week later.

Cut welfare some more if you want cut anything. Use donations to your advantage!

I say cut costs everywhere not just on social care but on everything that is a drain oh and the unemployment numbers are steadily growing so no more welfare.



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MDMAlliance said:
haxxiy said:
nuckles87 said:
So in other words, we all enjoy the benefits of socialism every day: the roads we use, the schools that teach us, the military that protects us...


Do not mistake social contract for social solidarity. The notion of socialism is closer to the later rather than the former.

I don't know where this notion that anything the State does is automatically socialism as opposed to, well, statism. That's close to doublespeak IMO.


There's always an overlap between many things politics.  I'll just leave this here as to make my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism


Thanks for saving me the trouble!



fatslob-:O said:
spurgeonryan said:
fatslob-:O said:

You have to realize that the US is broke. This ain't the 1950's america where the american dream was easily achieveable this is a recession where cutting costs is the best idea in this case.

Are we still spending 1 trillion a year on Defense and things to do with defense?

I would rather the kid down the street get healthcare and food than buy yet another fence for some guy in Afghanistan or another road for them to blow up a week later.

Cut welfare some more if you want cut anything. Use donations to your advantage!

I say cut costs everywhere not just on social care but on everything that is a drain oh and the unemployment numbers are steadily growing so no more welfare.


Just wondering, are you saying you're fine with just cutting spending and, as a result, leaving many more problems politically for the sake of economics?  I know many people don't know or understand, but there are many consequences to cutting in any department.  The severity of the consequences vary, but cutting from everywhere will stir up a shit storm.



MDMAlliance said:
fatslob-:O said:
spurgeonryan said:
fatslob-:O said:

You have to realize that the US is broke. This ain't the 1950's america where the american dream was easily achieveable this is a recession where cutting costs is the best idea in this case.

Are we still spending 1 trillion a year on Defense and things to do with defense?

I would rather the kid down the street get healthcare and food than buy yet another fence for some guy in Afghanistan or another road for them to blow up a week later.

Cut welfare some more if you want cut anything. Use donations to your advantage!

I say cut costs everywhere not just on social care but on everything that is a drain oh and the unemployment numbers are steadily growing so no more welfare.


Just wondering, are you saying you're fine with just cutting spending and, as a result, leaving many more problems politically for the sake of economics?  I know many people don't know or understand, but there are many consequences to cutting in any department.  The severity of the consequences vary, but cutting from everywhere will stir up a shit storm.

What will be a greater shit storm, cutting costs and taxes or raising taxes past the ceiling so that people could get government care ?



fatslob-:O said:
MDMAlliance said:
fatslob-:O said:
I say cut costs everywhere not just on social care but on everything that is a drain oh and the unemployment numbers are steadily growing so no more welfare.

 

Just wondering, are you saying you're fine with just cutting spending and, as a result, leaving many more problems politically for the sake of economics?  I know many people don't know or understand, but there are many consequences to cutting in any department.  The severity of the consequences vary, but cutting from everywhere will stir up a shit storm.

What will be a greater shit storm, cutting costs and taxes or raising taxes past the ceiling so that people could get government care ?


It's not even one or the other.  You said you want to cut costs everywhere.  You don't have to cut costs everywhere to cut on spending.  Also, there's a good debate on both sides on what COULD happen if you cut costs and taxes, cut costs raise taxes, spend more cut taxes, and spend more and raise taxes.  There's a lot of complicated stuff that goes behind it and no one ever knows fully what they are doing.



MDMAlliance said:
Marks said:
MDMAlliance said:
Marks said:
Is socialism endangered? Haha are you kidding? Freedom and liberty are endangered, not socialism. It's easier to sign up for welfare than it is to start your own business in America.


It almost sounds like you're saying "Socialism" and "Freedom and liberty" are opposites.  Also, starting your own business isn't harder to do that signing up for welfare.  You can start your own business pretty easily.


Yeah I actually am saying that Socialism and freedom are opposites. Would you disagree? I would argue that freedom and equality are mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both. 

And I don't know about that, I was definitely exaggerating. But I can tell you it's illegal for a little kid to open up a lemonade stand in the United States. You have to jump through hoops to follow the thousands of regulations that businesses must follow nowadays. 


A kid can't sign up for welfare either.  My parents own a business, and they say signing up for Welfare is difficult (but the business part isn't so difficult).  It depends on what your business is.  There are a few ways to run your business. 

edit: I forgot to address your first paragraph.  Socialism isn't the same thing as equality, and I do not think freedom and equality are mutually exclusive anyway.  They may have some contradictions, but they are not opposites.

In Brazil its a nightmare to open a bussiness and even more to stay afloat, social help not much.



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