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Forums - General Discussion - Evidence for the existence of God

jer133 said:

Evidence? Proof? Most people don't like the idea that there might be something greater/stronger then them out in the world. It is unfortunately believed that anything with greater power would use it to force its will on others. People like to be in control, they like to have choices so its easier to believe that the world/the universe/life in general is all some cosmic accident rather then think they are some pawn on some cosmic chessboard. Which of course is ridculous. Why would some creator create some intricate world and web of interdependent species just to mess with them? People like to belive in absolutes, all christians are intolerant, all republicans are pure evil, all democrats are above reproach and president Bush has never done a bit of good in his entire life. There can't be a god because he would act like my 4 year old nephew instead of some kindly old grandfather. Or there can't be a god because there's evil in the world because god somehow controls everyone or he should control everyone or something. That last one I admit I'll never understand.

Just a few thoughts. There is no wind in outerspace. When a comet sails by mini earth's aren't created in its wake. So the Big Bang happened for no logical reason at all and created our world and solar system. Convenient.

There was no life on Earth and then magically there was for no reason at all. Some lightning struck the mud and poof! Life. Think about it you have a room full of furniture and then for no reason an English bulldog forms out of the ground. Thats why creationists are so stupid they don't see the logic of scientific fact. Convenient.

We can find dinosaur bones from millions of years ago but we can't find a half monkey half caveman fossil from 60,000 years ago. The missing link as it were. I guess thats because the missing link was made entirely of jello and had no bones. Someone call Bill Cosby. Convenient.

Evolution is based on overcoming obstacles in ones environment. Natural selection if you will, if you are better able to deal with your environment you will flourish. So if your environment doesn't change neither would you. You would have no reason to evolve. Thats why Geico was able to travel to the Amazon rainforest and collect a bunch of cavemen for their commercials. Oh wait I forgot we all magically evolved at the same time. Darwin waved his magical wand and poof! Convenient.

Cows never have litters they at most have 2 calfs at a time. For some reason they have 4 udders though. Makes it easier for humans to milk them often without the cows getting sore. I guess Darwin forgot to use the wand on them. Convenient.

Chickens lay tons of eggs all the time. Only a tiny fraction ever get fertilized. It is good for a growing population so they don't use up all their sources of food (humans perhaps?) especially if they are on the top of the food chain but for the chickens it is an awful waste. I guess Darwin forgot to evolve them also. Convenient.

Believe what you wish. That Tom Cruise imagined us all into existence, that space aliens created everything and put us all here, or that theres some benevolent god up there that believes you are all special, you are all unique and is cheering you all on to be the heroes you were meant to be.

Those evil Christians that try to force you to believe by sharing their faith instead of shutting up about it? Well look at the pope he goes around telling everyone that they are special, they are gods children, they aren't alone, that they should strive to be perfect (good) people and that the evil they face in their lives makes them stronger.

If there is no such thing as god would the pope have wasted his life? Telling people overcoming their suffering made them strong, giving them hope, that they are loved eternally by their creator, that they will be rewarded for living like good people? I don't think so.

My fingers were crushed by a marble sink when I was in kindergarten, two of them were completely severed. They took me to the doctors and were able to sew them on. It shouldn't have worked because I was so young and the time it took to get me to the hospital. But it did work. My fingers were able to be reattached I still remember doctors coming in having me make a fist calling me miracle boy and running batteries of tests on my fingers.

I should not have them.

Evidence that there is a god? I could point to many things, the miracle of childbirth, the hole in the ozone layer in the Antartic mysteriously fixing itself, people helping complete strangers with no gain for themselves, evil heartless organized religions setting up soup kitchens, the miracles at Fatimah, bleeding statues that were never explained, the core samples that were taken from across Asian and Africa showing there was once a great flood (Noah anyone?) but I'll just look at my fingers on my right hand and remember.

There are no accidents.

Jeremy

 

 


/sarcasm?

I like how you have a problem with evolution poofing life into existence (even though that's not even close to being accurate), but have no trouble believing a God just poofed things into existence.



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Andir "So, I ask any of you. Why does God need preachers? Why does God need churches? Why does God need the 10 Commandments? Why does God need the Bible? Why does God need these tools if he is all powerful and wise? If he really does exist, why does he need to make statues bleed to keep you believing? Why does he need you to believe? Why does he need you to follow his rules in order to have a wonderful afterlife? Are you sure your praying to a higher all loving power, or are you supporting an alien being controlling certain aspects of your life?"

While he certainly doesn't need all those, it has not been said that He does. What has been is that He wants those things, the parts that humans themseves control. Why he does not intervene himself is: (1) He already has (see my post concerning universal knowledge). (2) I would asert that if He did perform the things that he requires of his followers, it would destroy is highest desire, the desire that we have free will. Why that would destroy free will is for another discussion.

Tombi, you say that evolution (evolution, meaning change in descendents or information increase) is on the opposite pole of randomness and chance. This does not work for two reasons: First, natural selection does not necessarily mean the strongest will survive, it means that the strongest have a better chance. Second, random mutation is needed for the other type of evolution. That is a major, major component to the idea. Note that the word there is "random".

Andir: Christian Creationist Theology asserts that there were no design flaws. After the fall (resultant of free will, mind you), then all that happened. On a side note, webbed fingers and toes does not have mean they are for swimming.



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CrashMan said:
^ That argument gets thrown around all the time. But how could god be All Good before he created anything. He alone existed and if there was no evil, how could he be good?

If I have a gun, and I give it to my friend KNOWING he is going to go kill someone, I am as morally responsible for that person's death as my friend is. How does that NOT apply to god.

The one thing god can't do is force a free willed individual to do something. It can't be done.

Also think about this. If god is all powerful, he then has the power to create another all powerful being. That being would then have the power to force god to perform an action that is evil, or imperfect, or force god not to know something, or even make god not all powerful or not exist. Regardless of whether god WOULD do that, (and how presumptuous it is of those people on here saying god COULD do things but WOULDN'T, how the hell do YOU know what god would do) it is possible and therefore proof that god can't can't be ALL Powerful, ALL Perfect, ALL Knowing, and ALL pressent (ie containing these attributes under all conditions).

If God created another ALL POWERFUL being, then why would it be evil? Evil is inherently pointless and extends from ignorance and desire for power and control, if you're already all knowing and all powerful then there's no motivation for evil. The fact that this point was overlooked is utterly astounding to me. when I say that God is beyond laws of physics and logic, I''m reffering to the currently understood rules that humanity has thus far uncovered.

There is still plenty more yet to learn in all of these fields, and the fact that you are apparently unaware of just how little you know in the universal scope of things demonstrates just what is meant when they say "in order to learn anything, you must be a fool for God." It's completely accurate, because as soon as you "know" People keep on thinking that I'm tossing God around as the reason for everything as being a sign of ignorance, but you're utterly wrong. There is still plenty to be learned as to HOW the universe works, but one thing to keep in mind is WHY it works is because God set it to be that way and all the pieces will eventually mesh together like a gigantic infinitely masterfully designed swiss clock.  But even then, we must still be aware of how limited our knowledge is. Theory is all well and good, but do not mistake proving that an event could have happened in a manner as being proof as to what actually happened.

 



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jer133 said:

Evidence? Proof? Most people don't like the idea that there might be something greater/stronger then them out in the world. It is unfortunately believed that anything with greater power would use it to force its will on others. People like to be in control, they like to have choices so its easier to believe that the world/the universe/life in general is all some cosmic accident rather then think they are some pawn on some cosmic chessboard. Which of course is ridculous. Why would some creator create some intricate world and web of interdependent species just to mess with them? People like to belive in absolutes, all christians are intolerant, all republicans are pure evil, all democrats are above reproach and president Bush has never done a bit of good in his entire life. There can't be a god because he would act like my 4 year old nephew instead of some kindly old grandfather. Or there can't be a god because there's evil in the world because god somehow controls everyone or he should control everyone or something. That last one I admit I'll never understand.
Projection, I think.

Just a few thoughts. There is no wind in outerspace. When a comet sails by mini earth's aren't created in its wake. So the Big Bang happened for no logical reason at all and created our world and solar system. Convenient.
You can't be serious.  Or you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.  I'm going to guess #2. 

There was no life on Earth and then magically there was for no reason at all. Some lightning struck the mud and poof! Life. Think about it you have a room full of furniture and then for no reason an English bulldog forms out of the ground. Thats why creationists are so stupid they don't see the logic of scientific fact. Convenient.
Again, either you're joking or you are completely ignorant as to what you're talking about.  I suppose this could be a deliberate ridiculous strawman to illustrate supposed ridiculous strawmen atheists use, but I see no hint so far that you're that subtle. 

We can find dinosaur bones from millions of years ago but we can't find a half monkey half caveman fossil from 60,000 years ago. The missing link as it were. I guess thats because the missing link was made entirely of jello and had no bones. Someone call Bill Cosby. Convenient.
Well, aside from the fact that finding "random fossil from sometime in the past BILLION years" is a bit easier than finding "fossil in a specific region 50 to 250 thousand years old of a specific group of species" -- there HAVE been intermediary species found that are either ancestral species or closely related (monkeys are not as closely related as chimpanzees etc. though).  But I guess you just don't believe that they have found those.

Evolution is based on overcoming obstacles in ones environment. Natural selection if you will, if you are better able to deal with your environment you will flourish. So if your environment doesn't change neither would you. You would have no reason to evolve. Thats why Geico was able to travel to the Amazon rainforest and collect a bunch of cavemen for their commercials. Oh wait I forgot we all magically evolved at the same time. Darwin waved his magical wand and poof! Convenient.
Umm, neanderthals?  There HAVE been other man-like species we share ancestors with; the fact that they're all dead doesn't mean they never existed.  Ever seen a gingko tree?

Cows never have litters they at most have 2 calfs at a time. For some reason they have 4 udders though. Makes it easier for humans to milk them often without the cows getting sore. I guess Darwin forgot to use the wand on them. Convenient.
Ahahaha.  Cows have four tits, therefore God.

Chickens lay tons of eggs all the time. Only a tiny fraction ever get fertilized. It is good for a growing population so they don't use up all their sources of food (humans perhaps?) especially if they are on the top of the food chain but for the chickens it is an awful waste. I guess Darwin forgot to evolve them also. Convenient.
Right, because there can't posssibly be another explanation like selective breeding for increased egg production.

Believe what you wish. That Tom Cruise imagined us all into existence, that space aliens created everything and put us all here, or that theres some benevolent god up there that believes you are all special, you are all unique and is cheering you all on to be the heroes you were meant to be.

Those evil Christians that try to force you to believe by sharing their faith instead of shutting up about it? Well look at the pope he goes around telling everyone that they are special, they are gods children, they aren't alone, that they should strive to be perfect (good) people and that the evil they face in their lives makes them stronger.

If there is no such thing as god would the pope have wasted his life? Telling people overcoming their suffering made them strong, giving them hope, that they are loved eternally by their creator, that they will be rewarded for living like good people? I don't think so.
Ever watch Miracle on 34th Street?  If "Kris Kringle" is not in fact Santa Claus, his life is a falsehood.  Does that mean it was a wasted life?  Can you not have accomplished good if you do so for a misbegotten cause?  Nonsense.

My fingers were crushed by a marble sink when I was in kindergarten, two of them were completely severed. They took me to the doctors and were able to sew them on. It shouldn't have worked because I was so young and the time it took to get me to the hospital. But it did work. My fingers were able to be reattached I still remember doctors coming in having me make a fist calling me miracle boy and running batteries of tests on my fingers.

I should not have them.

Evidence that there is a god? I could point to many things, the miracle of childbirth, the hole in the ozone layer in the Antartic mysteriously fixing itself, people helping complete strangers with no gain for themselves, evil heartless organized religions setting up soup kitchens, the miracles at Fatimah, bleeding statues that were never explained, the core samples that were taken from across Asian and Africa showing there was once a great flood (Noah anyone?) but I'll just look at my fingers on my right hand and remember.
The "miracle" of childirth, lol.  I would like to see the ozone evidence and why you say it qualifies as a "miracle" any more than any other unexpected phenomenon.  When a volcano popped out of a Mexican farmyard in the 1940s, was that a miracle too?  Altruism = God exists?  Anecdotes which are probably highly suspect with little evidence.  Core samples?  Evidence plz, I bet it's creationist claptrap that has been debunked a dozen times.  I'm glad you have your fingers too but you're using them to type absolute drivel. 

There are no accidents.
Yes there are. 

Jeremy 



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Phendrana said:
 

/sarcasm? 


No, just because they couldn' understand it, it MUST mean that God exists.

Let me break some of these down.

In fact, there is wind in outter space.  Solar wind, which causes the tails of comets.  the tail doesn't follow the comet, it is particles from the comet flying away from the sun.  If you looked at a comet from the sun, it would look like a frozen round rock.  However, since we are not sitting on the sun, we see that the comet is being deteriorated by the sun's energy and braking apart.  Why are there no mini-Earths?  Not enough matter.

I don't understand the second paragraph, It kind of sounds like he's supporting evolution... instead of life forming at the blink of an eye, it evolved over billions of years.

I believe that there are "missing links" found on a regualr basis.  The difference here is that some believe that it took a cataclismic event to wipe out all the dinosaurs, sealing them into the ground to be turned to fossils.   The difference then, is that these missing link skeletons were probably eaten or broken down by the natural processes and thus, fewexist today because there wasn't a bunch of dirt and polution in the air to settle and cover the remains to e preserved.

No, we didn't all evolve at the same time.  It's theorized that life did evolve over time and nomadic as we were, some people actually might have travelled from one continent to another either by small boat, or walking across a frozen gap.  Some even theorize that all the continents were one entity at one point in time and the Earth was sort of this off balance thing that was breaking apart and shifting to equilibrium, and is still shifting to the point where the landmass on one side of the planet will eventually be equal to the other.  Life could have formed even before this change and been seperated by this shift.

Cows may have 4 udders so that the calfs could shift from side to side as well in case the mother got sore on one side or had to nurse more than just their two calves.  But you never thought of that.

The chicken and egg.  How many human women do you know?  You do know that they produce eggs every month, right?  Yeah, we don't harvest these eggs and eat them, but the same process goes on in the chicken.  the only difference is that humans keep their eggs internally and chickens (and most other birds) lay those eggs outside their body for pure number sake.  The only reason most are not fertile is that the farms generally don't let the roosters do their thing... if you get my drift and fertilize the egg before it's laid.

 



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Andir said:
Kasz216 said:

God could come down to earth today. Say "Hey, Kasz, I exist, watch me do some crazy stuff." then perform miracle after miracle out of nowhere, and i wouldn't believe it was him based on that, because God could do a bunch of miracles, satan could do a bunch of miracles, some sort of alien could be doing mriacles, guy from the future, i could be hallucinating...

You made me remember my favorite line from the Star Trek movies :p

"What does God need with a starship?"

So, I ask any of you. Why does God need preachers? Why does God need churches? Why does God need the 10 Commandments? Why does God need the Bible? Why does God need these tools if he is all powerful and wise? If he really does exist, why does he need to make statues bleed to keep you believing? Why does he need you to believe? Why does he need you to follow his rules in order to have a wonderful afterlife? Are you sure your praying to a higher all loving power, or are you supporting an alien being controlling certain aspects of your life?

If he doesn't need these tools, why go to church? Why support religion? Is it to continue preaching what your prefered lifestyle is to the next generation or are you truly under the impression that God needs you to tell everyone about him? What did people before organized religion do? Did they all go to hell because they lived life to their rules? When I go to hell because I don't support the idea of an "all loving"God, will I finally meet the cavemen of history's past?


I'd guess he doesn't. Which is basically my point. Of course. I don't need people to give me stuff to make me happy. It'd still make me happy if people gave me stuff.

Me, i'm certain I'm not supporting some alien overlord, but then again i don't worship god in the "traditional" believe what i say or you go to hell model. There were plenty of religious texts that supported the opposite including christian ones that were gotten rid of at certain times. Usually times where groups wanted to use religion to tighten their hold on people. (See the romans.) Some that even say nobody goes to hell, and some that say people go to hell for a time equal to their sins if they don't take the Jesus way out.

Besides. It's not really my buisness. God want to send someone to hell that's between god and them. Technically though, people who died before Christ came in the christian faith i believe were given a "Get out of Jail free card." At least in most variations of the faiths, so technically you wouldn't meet said cavemen.

Really though, my religion doesn't effect any part of my lifestyle other then my religion though.



Andir said:
Phendrana said:
 

/sarcasm?


No, just because they couldn' understand it, it MUST mean that God exists. 


 just because they think they do understand it, it MUST mean that God doesn't exist.



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appolose said:
Andir "So, I ask any of you. Why does God need preachers? Why does God need churches? Why does God need the 10 Commandments? Why does God need the Bible? Why does God need these tools if he is all powerful and wise? If he really does exist, why does he need to make statues bleed to keep you believing? Why does he need you to believe? Why does he need you to follow his rules in order to have a wonderful afterlife? Are you sure your praying to a higher all loving power, or are you supporting an alien being controlling certain aspects of your life?"

While he certainly doesn't need all those, it has not been said that He does. What has been is that He wants those things, the parts that humans themseves control. Why he does not intervene himself is: (1) He already has (see my post concerning universal knowledge). (2) I would asert that if He did perform the things that he requires of his followers, it would destroy is highest desire, the desire that we have free will. Why that would destroy free will is for another discussion.

Tombi, you say that evolution (evolution, meaning change in descendents or information increase) is on the opposite pole of randomness and chance. This does not work for two reasons: First, natural selection does not necessarily mean the strongest will survive, it means that the strongest have a better chance. Second, random mutation is needed for the other type of evolution. That is a major, major component to the idea. Note that the word there is "random".

Andir: Christian Creationist Theology asserts that there were no design flaws. After the fall (resultant of free will, mind you), then all that happened. On a side note, webbed fingers and toes does not have mean they are for swimming.

Why does he want those things?  What does God need with a starship?  That was the original statement, but you twisted it.  If there is a God, why does he need you to pray to him?  Sorry, why does he "want" these things.  Maybe the one word difference confused you.  What would God want with a church?  Is he so egotistical that he needs (sorry, wants) people to worship him?  If so, why should God get what he wants in exchange for your labor?  Why should you work extra hard so that this one thing can have it's desires, yet you go without?

And while these webs may not be for swimming, but what would you use them for?  Over time, they would get bigger and you'd turn into a bat with a flap of skin to fly?  Either way, the patterns denotes travel.  To get away.  Deformations are Natures way of evolving.  Now, Humans for centuries have been killing off those mutations to maintain what they think is the proper course of nature.



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senseinobaka said:
appolose said:

Of course, Death could not be tortured forever. But then again, if the lake of fire is total annihilation, then Death could not be destroyed either, since death is merely a physical process in your context. I would postulate that Death as it is refered to here is meaning, therefore, something else. Now, in Revelations 20:10, it says "And the devil... was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " In Matthew 25:41, concerning the unsaved it states "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angles." Also, on being called the second death: this does not necessarily imply nonexistence. The first death, physical death, does no mean the non-existence of the body, but the seperation of the spirit and the body. So the second death does not mean the nonexistence of anything, as did neither the first. The second death could even be thought of as (you may be aware of this idea) the spirit's seperation from God himself.

 1) Death is very destroyable. Remember death is the result of Adamic Sin and Jesus Ransom repurchases us from adamic sin. Under God's kingdom Adamic Sin and Death will no longer exist. They will be destroyed.

2 )You mention Rev 20:10. You obviously understand who the devil is, but do you know who the beast and prophet is? That entails a very long discussion of revelation that I'm not going to get into. But I will mention something I said later in the post you quoted. The lake of fire and the lake of burning sulfur are allusions or references to an actual place that tangibly existed. The place is called Gehenna and it was a trash dump that was on fire 24/7 and smelt as sulfur. It pictures destruction as if by fire, or a ceasing to exist. Second Death, from which there is no ressurection.

3)Torment is translated from the "basanistes" It literally means 'jailers'. The idea being that Satan's imprisonment to everlasting destruction is indeed torment. It is different than the idea of torture and suffering that is derived from the greek word "basanizo" which literally means 'test by the proving stone or torture.'

4)Eccl. 9:4-6,10 specifically mentions the state of those who die from adamic sin. The are not conscious of anything. The are simply dead. The teaching of an immortal soul is not found within the bible. That is another "weed" that was infiltrated from the Hellenic religions. If you want proof turn your bible to Genesis 2:7. Here the bible specifically says that God breathed the breath of life and the man came to be a living soul. It does not say that the man was giving an immortal soul. The word soul is derived from the Hebrew word "nephesh" which literally means 'a breather; being' and the greek word "psyche". Nephesh describes living things, such as humans and animals. The word does not describe spirit creatures. Spirit creatres are described by the word "ruach" in hebrew and "pneuma" in Greek and are never used to describe any part of a human.

5)Second death does represent eternal destruction. Those going thru second death have no hope of resurrection. They will be destroyed forever. Those going thru second death are said to be thrown into the garbage dump gehenna, the place that burns with sulfur, and destroyed (not tortured).


Death isn't destroyable, as one cannot destroy a process, as destruction would entail a tangible object, not process. Also, again I do not think that usage of the word Death refers to that in that way. Concerning the allusion to Gehenna; I would say that he was using that place to compare it to another place, one that also existed, just as tangible, as is heaven and anything else spiritual. Also I would disagree with your statement that that it represents nonexistence; I see no inference of that idea in the imagery. The immortal soul is mentioned in the Bible. 2nd Cor. 5:8 syas when one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord. How could one be absent from all that he is? Nor is that a ressurection, if it was, then the body would be present with the Lord. Furthermore, if Christ's death and adamic death are only bodily consequnce, then how are the unsaved going to go through judgement and a second death? They couldn't be around for that, since they were not resurrected. Concerning the literal meaning of nepesh; for the man, it entails more than just physical life. It was man and only man that received the breath of life, only man that was made in His image, not the animals. Of course, God has no physical image, so that can't be what God is referring to. Also, as men are not wholly spiritual creatures, the Bible would not refer to them in the "ruach" and "pneuma" words. Also, since Satan and humans will be thrown into the same place, why would one group be destroyed and the other imprisoned only? Finally, what does "eternal" destruction mean" If it means gone forever, then just "destroyed" would suffice.

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appolose said:

Tombi, you say that evolution (evolution, meaning change in descendents or information increase) is on the opposite pole of randomness and chance. This does not work for two reasons: First, natural selection does not necessarily mean the strongest will survive, it means that the strongest have a better chance. Second, random mutation is needed for the other type of evolution. That is a major, major component to the idea. Note that the word there is "random".


 1) The most adaptive species survive not the strongest, thats evolution.

2) The mutations ARE random, but the mutations that survive and the mutations that die ARE NOT random.