Positive or negitive, there sure is a lot of passion in this discussion. nothing like fireworks to light up a dull evening.

Mummelmann said: The Bible explained that there were 3 continents and that the earth was flat. Just a small sampling of "god's wisdom" back in the day. He should've went to school this god character...

When did God say the world was flat?!  Please, do tell!

sienster said: chriscox1121 said: @ O_o Why more people are saying there is no God is because, we are getting more and more into the last days. But, just like the gentlemen stated earlier Romans 1. We will all give an account and none will stand without excuse. Everyone will give an account for the deeds done in the body. Rev. 20. You look at Israel on a map and see how small and insignifcant it is. But, yet this whole world revolves around Israel. News Media eats up anything that goes on in Israel. You look at Bible prophecy in the book of Dan. I think Ch. 2 & 7. Then compare with Revelations. They go hand and hand and were prophesied years ago, but today we see all of the things written in the Holy Scriptures coming to pass. Not one thing is being left out and won't be left out. Remember in the Word concerning the coming of the Lord. Matt. 24. It shall be like the days of Noah. In the days of the Noah the Bible said the earth was filled with violence. This world is out of control and heading down a dark path of destruction. The coalition of ezekiel 38 is starting to accumulate and the signs of the times have never been so prevalent. You do some reading on RFID and see if it doesn't fall in line with Rev. 13. Which was prophesied 2000 years ago. The problem is that everyone on the website that is not a true Christian is nothing more than God Haters. It's natural, you are born with enmity with God. It's not until you have been changed by his marvelous light that you can truly understand Christianity. Thats why he said if you seek me. You will find me. We don't seek him enough. You guys spend more time trying to disprove God, which will never happen. (Science only proves even more theres a God). Than to truly seek him out with an open heart. If you don't have an open heart you will never find Him   Very, very, very, very well said! The only thing I'll add is that, if you do believe in God and it turns out that there is none, what have you lost? On the other hand, if you don't believe in God and it turns out there is one, you're screwed. So basically you have a ton of people willing to bet their souls that there is no God because one of the deadly sins - Pride! They refuse to think that some entity is above them, therefore they refute all the evidence.

1. What if god  prefers people who value evidence over faith.
2. 2 gods say any believers of the other one shaul go to hell. Believe the wrong one and you go to hell. Believe in none and you don't

highwaystar101 said: pichu_pichu said: God has to exist, If he doesn't where will we be after we die? We just die?... Where do all the calculators go when they die? (10pts to whoever gets the reference, twroo i'm looking at you)

 Red Dwarf

vaio said: Eomund said: Vaio will you not understand simple words coming from me? Those that do wrong can be forgiven, but they are less of a person if they do not seek forgiveness and restitution. You can speak the Words of God and change people's lives even when you are in sin, but you, the speaker, are committing a sin and you should know better. The Bible states that whoever knows what is right and does not do it is beaten with many lashes, but whoever does not know what is right and does wrong, will be beaten with few lashes. The priests are vile for committing the grave sin they have. It would not be beyond comprehension that those priests could have some tie to the homosexual community. Perhaps not all of them, but it would not surprise me to find that out, nay I actually expect that. Not to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles but those who are already debased will seek further debauchery. Look to "San Fan-sicko" to see what I mean. Listen to Michael Savage and listen well for a month and you will truly see what I mean. [link]www.michaelsavage.com[/link] To the bottom line: those who sin can tarnish the name of God as they have apparently done in this case. I do not agree, nor does the Catholic Church, with the actions of those priests, yet they did it. Does that mean that Christianity believes in molesting young boys? FAR FROM IT! GET THOSE PERVERTS OUT OF THE PULPIT! TAKE THEM TO THE SLAMMER WHERE THEY CAN DO NO MORE HARM TO THE KIDS! Enough of ranting now. I am done for the night.   You set your self up so nicely by saying that anyone that speaks the words of God but doesn´t follow the word of God is not a true follower and thus the only ones left to be called worhy followers are those that do nothing wrong. I am not a gayfriendly person, I am one of those that doesn´t really care about gay people as long as they don´t hit on me but to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles is so wrong in so many ways that it think you have to pray for forgivnes tonight before it´s to late and if there is any selfrespect within this site you should not only be banned for your muslim comments but also be banned an extra 6 months for the homo comment and then sentenced to 10 000 hail marys a day for the rest of your life. I fully understand what you are saying and to some extent I agree with you that one that speaks and breaks gods laws shouldn´t equal as god is bad but It´s really sickening how Christians all the time and as soon it gets hot uses that excuse instead of taking responsobility in their fellow Chritian brothers actions and say that we are all humans we can do wrong but NO Christians jump high when compared to something bad and scream that´s not representative of GOD. Isn´t the followers a representation of what they follow? shouldn´t the followers take resposobility in what their teachings produce even if it´s not the fault of the belief it self?

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Quote- Mahatma Gandhi

I know your not going to like this, but yes where all humans. Even the pope isn't perfect, no one is. Just cause thiers a group calling themselves christians and believe in God is nothing speacial. Were really not. I follow my religion because its tradition (group gatherings, ~posadas~,ect... ) its just tradition. But religion is  thier to help you have a better relationship with God and thats what is the most important thing in the WORLD!%#@# . And your right we should represent what we follow.

When preaching yet not following what we teach is called hypocrisy. Its something we all do, and its really comon in the bible. (You will find the following verse interesting, when Jesus calls the priets, rabbis and teachers hypocrites. And its really interesting how Jesus spoked of this matter years before the crusades, thievery of the church, abuse of power by the church and just plain lying that may still go on today)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=31

 

And yes

mark 5:19

19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 Pretty much who ever teaches the word of Jesus but does not follow them will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Final-Fan said: kergeten said: redspear said: kergeten said: kergeten said: A subject of thought for everyone! What good has religion ever done exclusively ( meaning that it did before anyone else and despite everone else) and without outside influences. Hard to think huh? Now what bad has religion ever done? Hmmm, sorry I don't have all night to write a post on that matter. Won't anyone answer my questions? Yes, I'm looking at you Kazadoom. Religion has done a ton of good even if you have an athiestic viewpoint it is possible ot see that. For starters it initially explained the unexplainable. To some extent it still does today. For example there are secluded tribes of people tha tlive in Indonesia during the time of the tsunami a few years ago they all ran to higher ground because there religion told them that when the world tree shook the water would come ashore and they would need to get away form it. In the old testement the rule not to eat pork was there because pork could make you sick(trichinosis) the rules about how to deal with people who were sick prevent people from catching comminicable diseases. it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do. Even the concept of go forth and multiply greatly encouraged agrarian cultures. there is a lot that religion has done right. However it is easy to overlook since a lot times religion is misused by power seeking people who don't really care or are egomaniacal because they think they are god's A list either way not good. Sorry but you're wrong, wrong, wrong For starters it initially explained the unexplainable. Yeah thing is that explanation led to the burning of withches and and to death of so many plague victimes who trusted the church with a cure, and banned any other explanations like say the one's that mattered.( mediavel christianity was completely against any form of medical research) Second al those things you just stated arent part of religion, they are part of local tradition, completely diferent things. Third it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do Yes and the answer was, if youre poor you stai poor no matter what,you shoul listen to the church no matter how ville and corrupt it gets, and the king who is despot is sent from god, oh and you're a slave beacouse god said so and you should never question that. Like I said religion has done nothing good that other non religios people haven't done first, in fact the church was always behind secular society with anything having to do with basic human rights and still is( in fact it was very much against it). Anyone else want to offer an answer? (A) You're cherry-picking for all the bad religion has done while not bothering to look for the good it has done. (B) The bigger problem, though, I suspect, is that you are comparing religion to science or humanism and finding religion wanting. Sure. But we haven't had true science until the last few hundred years, and before that, what? Nothing, that's what. Humanism has older roots, but it wasn't very successful until about the same time science took off. We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier. At worst, religion managed to hold back a much more comprehensive way of explaining the world and its wonders for a century or two. The church actually had many very productive protoscientists among its ranks until it became obvious that "naturalism" was a mindshare competitor. People need explanations. They NEED a worldview to operate within to be productive. Most of the world religions have a peaceful message at the core. Yes, it has too often been corrupted to do evil. But how can you say that things would not have been even worse if they had had some other philosophy? Perhaps one that would condone mass murder or slavery or whatever without needing to be twisted into a pretzel first?

 A. I think those were just some particular examples. 

 B. There was no science before the 18'th or 19'th century? Did your great great grand parents' generation invent the wheel and your grand parents' generation discover mathematics? Or have you forgotten the great ancient thinkers that left us marvelous legacies such as Mathematics, Geometry, The Republic and many other great ideas that have been buried for over a thousand years in The Dark Ages (they don't call them dark because the sun didn't shine like it does today), the main force behind this being the christian churches. "A century or two"? Try a millennia or two!!! The effect was not only the dark ages but the ignorant mentality left behind that took the renaissance 6 centuries to fight back, and is still felt today in the most unlikely of places: open-minded USA. (pause and laugh).

"We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier." Who can really tell what would have happened if the European mindset would have been different and more open in the past two millennia? I for one am sure we would have created a much more different world than the one today. It is clear that the dark ages held our development back for more than a millennia but there are many other factors that come into place when evaluating the route that science took, especially in the past century. The main driving force behind the latest scientifically, political and mental developments have been the great wars of the 20'th century (WWI, WWII and The Cold War). THAT is what took to shake the old way of thinking imposed by the church over more than one millennia: The realization of all the reality faced by the entire world.

 

Dragonator said: It is clear that the dark ages held our development back for more than a millennia but there are many other factors that come into place when evaluating the route that science took, especially in the past century. The main driving force behind the latest scientifically, political and mental developments have been the great wars of the 20'th century (WWI, WWII and The Cold War). THAT is what took to shake the old way of thinking imposed by the church over more than one millennia: The realization of all the reality faced by the entire world.

I disagree as the dark ages doesn't seem to be any darker than the 20th century which have two World Wars. One of the greatest invention of all time was the printing press which was invented during the so called dark ages. Just look at all the doors that opened up with the printing press.

While it easier to judge those witch hunters hundreds of years ago (there were not that many witch trials) it a little harder to judge our own generation who aborted babies like a drive through fast food joint.

 Of course we justify  ourselves with abortion just like those back then who justify themselves with the witch trials and the crusades. 

Dragonator said: Final-Fan said: kergeten said: redspear said: kergeten said: kergeten said: A subject of thought for everyone! What good has religion ever done exclusively ( meaning that it did before anyone else and despite everone else) and without outside influences. Hard to think huh? Now what bad has religion ever done? Hmmm, sorry I don't have all night to write a post on that matter. Won't anyone answer my questions? Yes, I'm looking at you Kazadoom. Religion has done a ton of good even if you have an athiestic viewpoint it is possible ot see that. For starters it initially explained the unexplainable. To some extent it still does today. For example there are secluded tribes of people tha tlive in Indonesia during the time of the tsunami a few years ago they all ran to higher ground because there religion told them that when the world tree shook the water would come ashore and they would need to get away form it. In the old testement the rule not to eat pork was there because pork could make you sick(trichinosis) the rules about how to deal with people who were sick prevent people from catching comminicable diseases. it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do. Even the concept of go forth and multiply greatly encouraged agrarian cultures. there is a lot that religion has done right. However it is easy to overlook since a lot times religion is misused by power seeking people who don't really care or are egomaniacal because they think they are god's A list either way not good. Sorry but you're wrong, wrong, wrong For starters it initially explained the unexplainable. Yeah thing is that explanation led to the burning of withches and and to death of so many plague victimes who trusted the church with a cure, and banned any other explanations like say the one's that mattered.( mediavel christianity was completely against any form of medical research) Second al those things you just stated arent part of religion, they are part of local tradition, completely diferent things. Third it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do Yes and the answer was, if youre poor you stai poor no matter what,you shoul listen to the church no matter how ville and corrupt it gets, and the king who is despot is sent from god, oh and you're a slave beacouse god said so and you should never question that. Like I said religion has done nothing good that other non religios people haven't done first, in fact the church was always behind secular society with anything having to do with basic human rights and still is( in fact it was very much against it). Anyone else want to offer an answer? (A) You're cherry-picking for all the bad religion has done while not bothering to look for the good it has done. (B) The bigger problem, though, I suspect, is that you are comparing religion to science or humanism and finding religion wanting. Sure. But we haven't had true science until the last few hundred years, and before that, what? Nothing, that's what. Humanism has older roots, but it wasn't very successful until about the same time science took off. We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier. At worst, religion managed to hold back a much more comprehensive way of explaining the world and its wonders for a century or two. The church actually had many very productive protoscientists among its ranks until it became obvious that "naturalism" was a mindshare competitor. People need explanations. They NEED a worldview to operate within to be productive. Most of the world religions have a peaceful message at the core. Yes, it has too often been corrupted to do evil. But how can you say that things would not have been even worse if they had had some other philosophy? Perhaps one that would condone mass murder or slavery or whatever without needing to be twisted into a pretzel first? A. I think those were just some particular examples. B. There was no science before the 18'th or 19'th century? Did your great great grand parents' generation invent the wheel and your grand parents' generation discover mathematics? Or have you forgotten the great ancient thinkers that left us marvelous legacies such as Mathematics, Geometry, The Republic and many other great ideas that have been buried for over a thousand years in The Dark Ages (they don't call them dark because the sun didn't shine like it does today), the main force behind this being the christian churches. "A century or two"? Try a millennia or two!!! The effect was not only the dark ages but the ignorant mentality left behind that took the renaissance 6 centuries to fight back, and is still felt today in the most unlikely of places: open-minded USA. (pause and laugh). "We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier." Who can really tell what would have happened if the European mindset would have been different and more open in the past two millennia? I for one am sure we would have created a much more different world than the one today. It is clear that the dark ages held our development back for more than a millennia but there are many other factors that come into place when evaluating the route that science took, especially in the past century. The main driving force behind the latest scientifically, political and mental developments have been the great wars of the 20'th century (WWI, WWII and The Cold War). THAT is what took to shake the old way of thinking imposed by the church over more than one millennia: The realization of all the reality faced by the entire world.

(A) No, he has clearly been arguing that religion has been NOTHING but a drag on and bad influence to society.

(B) I do not deny that many of these things were developed more than a few centuries ago, but they were not put under the organized scientific method that allowed them to explode onto the world stage and allowed Europe and her progeny to rule it up through the SECOND HALF of the twentieth century.  The only serious challengers to Europe's supremacy before 1950 were America which sprang from Europe (and did successfully become the new highest power) and Japan which deliberately directed all its energy towards emulating it. 

There is a reason why our understanding of the universe and our technology with which to manipulate our tiny piece of it have been growing at an exponential rate.  The Greeks, admirable though they were, did not have that.  And as I said, religion's attempts to hold back this incredibly powerful new paradigm have been, at most, a war of attrition that religion is on the losing end of almost every single time.  Religions have won some battles, but they have never been remotely close to regaining supremacy of influence over the people (versus science).  With exceptions. 

The World Wars and Cold War do NOT get full credit for the amazing advancements since then, except in that greatly increased government research (into military-related tech) bore fruit (in more places than just military-related tech, or were subsequently applied to nonmilitary tech).  The 1800s had advancements entirely as dramatic to those living then, even if they may not seem so to you. 

Smidlee said: Dragonator said: It is clear that the dark ages held our development back for more than a millennia but there are many other factors that come into place when evaluating the route that science took, especially in the past century. The main driving force behind the latest scientifically, political and mental developments have been the great wars of the 20'th century (WWI, WWII and The Cold War). THAT is what took to shake the old way of thinking imposed by the church over more than one millennia: The realization of all the reality faced by the entire world.   I disagree as the dark ages doesn't seem to be any darker than the 20th century which have two World Wars. One of the greatest invention of all time was the printing press which was invented during the so called dark ages. Just look at all the doors that opened up with the printing press. While it easier to judge those witch hunters hundreds of years ago (there were not that many witch trials) it a little harder to judge our own generation who aborted babies like a drive through fast food joint. Of course we justify ourselves with abortion just like those back then who justify themselves with the witch trials and the crusades.

OMFG. There's already a thread for the abortion debate.

If you really want to go there -- and if you really have something to say that hasn't already been said -- then READ through the arguments that have been made and make your own argument that has not already been made or respond to some argument that you have a rebuttal to.

And if you can't or won't make that effort, then just shut up and don't drag this war onto YET ANOTHER front.

And thanks for comparing a quick abortion to burning someone alive, and comparing abortion to picking up a cheeseburger.

Jeez I go to bed with Eomund talking about peace, love, and happiness and I wake up and real christianity has reared its ugly bigoted head.

I have only seen one real christian in my life. There was this serial killer who raped and killed all these women. He was caught and found guilty and at his sentencing the families got to say something to him. Most were very violent and angry, but one guy, a father of one of the girls, spoke about how what the guy did was horrible, but said the bible tells him to forgive, so he forgave the guy, the guy started crying, and I was amazed.

A far cry from these 'christians' who advocate WAR and TORTURE in the name of some illusion of security.These 'christians' who bomb abortion clinics or where white sheets, burn crosses, and lynch black people. Eomund, it is I who pity you the company you keep, and the blindness in which you live your life.

Jesus
he was a handsome man
and what I want to know is
how do you like your blue-eyed boy
Mister Death