Evidence for the existence of God

[Final-Fan]

Dragonator said:

Final-Fan said:

kergeten said:

redspear said:

kergeten said:

kergeten said:
A subject of thought for everyone! What good has religion ever done exclusively ( meaning that it did before anyone else and despite everone else) and without outside influences. Hard to think huh?
Now what bad has religion ever done? Hmmm, sorry I don't have all night to write a post on that matter.

Won't anyone answer my questions?

Yes, I'm looking at you Kazadoom.

Religion has done a ton of good even if you have an athiestic viewpoint it is possible ot see that. For starters it initially explained the unexplainable. To some extent it still does today. For example there are secluded tribes of people tha tlive in Indonesia during the time of the tsunami a few years ago they all ran to higher ground because there religion told them that when the world tree shook the water would come ashore and they would need to get away form it. In the old testement the rule not to eat pork was there because pork could make you sick(trichinosis) the rules about how to deal with people who were sick prevent people from catching comminicable diseases. it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do. Even the concept of go forth and multiply greatly encouraged agrarian cultures. there is a lot that religion has done right. However it is easy to overlook since a lot times religion is misused by power seeking people who don't really care or are egomaniacal because they think they are god's A list either way not good.

Sorry but you're wrong, wrong, wrong

For starters it initially explained the unexplainable.

Yeah thing is that explanation led to the burning of withches and and to death of so many plague victimes who trusted the church with a cure, and banned any other explanations like say the one's that mattered.( mediavel christianity was completely against any form of medical research)

Second al those things you just stated arent part of religion, they are part of local tradition, completely diferent things.

Third it also put to rest people mind about questions that mankind has always asked why am I here or how did the world come about. It did so with a certainity to that satisfied most people and let them focus on the stuff they needed to do

Yes and the answer was, if youre poor you stai poor no matter what,you shoul listen to the church no matter how ville and corrupt it gets, and the king who is despot is sent from god, oh and you're a slave beacouse god said so and you should never question that.

Like I said religion has done nothing good that other non religios people haven't done first, in fact the church was always behind secular society with anything having to do with basic human rights and still is( in fact it was very much against it).

Anyone else want to offer an answer?

(A) You're cherry-picking for all the bad religion has done while not bothering to look for the good it has done.

(B) The bigger problem, though, I suspect, is that you are comparing religion to science or humanism and finding religion wanting. Sure. But we haven't had true science until the last few hundred years, and before that, what? Nothing, that's what. Humanism has older roots, but it wasn't very successful until about the same time science took off. We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier. At worst, religion managed to hold back a much more comprehensive way of explaining the world and its wonders for a century or two. The church actually had many very productive protoscientists among its ranks until it became obvious that "naturalism" was a mindshare competitor.

People need explanations. They NEED a worldview to operate within to be productive. Most of the world religions have a peaceful message at the core. Yes, it has too often been corrupted to do evil. But how can you say that things would not have been even worse if they had had some other philosophy? Perhaps one that would condone mass murder or slavery or whatever without needing to be twisted into a pretzel first?

A. I think those were just some particular examples.

B. There was no science before the 18'th or 19'th century? Did your great great grand parents' generation invent the wheel and your grand parents' generation discover mathematics? Or have you forgotten the great ancient thinkers that left us marvelous legacies such as Mathematics, Geometry, The Republic and many other great ideas that have been buried for over a thousand years in The Dark Ages (they don't call them dark because the sun didn't shine like it does today), the main force behind this being the christian churches. "A century or two"? Try a millennia or two!!! The effect was not only the dark ages but the ignorant mentality left behind that took the renaissance 6 centuries to fight back, and is still felt today in the most unlikely of places: open-minded USA. (pause and laugh).

"We wouldn't have magically had science thousands of years earlier." Who can really tell what would have happened if the European mindset would have been different and more open in the past two millennia? I for one am sure we would have created a much more different world than the one today. It is clear that the dark ages held our development back for more than a millennia but there are many other factors that come into place when evaluating the route that science took, especially in the past century. The main driving force behind the latest scientifically, political and mental developments have been the great wars of the 20'th century (WWI, WWII and The Cold War). THAT is what took to shake the old way of thinking imposed by the church over more than one millennia: The realization of all the reality faced by the entire world.

 

(A) No, he has clearly been arguing that religion has been NOTHING but a drag on and bad influence to society.

(B) I do not deny that many of these things were developed more than a few centuries ago, but they were not put under the organized scientific method that allowed them to explode onto the world stage and allowed Europe and her progeny to rule it up through the SECOND HALF of the twentieth century.  The only serious challengers to Europe's supremacy before 1950 were America which sprang from Europe (and did successfully become the new highest power) and Japan which deliberately directed all its energy towards emulating it. 

There is a reason why our understanding of the universe and our technology with which to manipulate our tiny piece of it have been growing at an exponential rate.  The Greeks, admirable though they were, did not have that.  And as I said, religion's attempts to hold back this incredibly powerful new paradigm have been, at most, a war of attrition that religion is on the losing end of almost every single time.  Religions have won some battles, but they have never been remotely close to regaining supremacy of influence over the people (versus science).  With exceptions. 

The World Wars and Cold War do NOT get full credit for the amazing advancements since then, except in that greatly increased government research (into military-related tech) bore fruit (in more places than just military-related tech, or were subsequently applied to nonmilitary tech).  The 1800s had advancements entirely as dramatic to those living then, even if they may not seem so to you.