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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox One's fast change of policies.

the-pi-guy said:
silentdj151 said:
Dr.Grass said:

And Steam.


Seems people are unable to distinguish between these obviously different things. I'll give them a hand:

NO-ONE GIVES A RAT'S ASS ABOUT DRM ON DIGITAL MEDIA.

and

EVERYONE WAS PISSED AT MS BECAUSE OF DRM ON PHYSICAL MEDIA

HUH?

Steam took a product pc games that were traditionally sold on physical media cd/dvd

and made it digital with DRM...offering lower prices then the physical copy...now everyone sells pc games via digital with some sort of drm

if your counter argument is going to be...pc games were only licenses to play the game in the first place...the same can be said about console games all you do is buy a license to play the game you never acutually own it.

However, you can trade in your physical console game copy to ebgames for below market value or resell it yourself on amazon...ebay...craigslist for market rate.

So, I don't care about reselling console games ussually the trade in value is nothing or it takes to much time and effort to resell at market value...basically diminishing returns...

I'm not sure I get your argument or point

But the thing is, that a lot of people complain about DRM, not the price.  Even for music, a lot of people were begging Apple to remove DRM from iTunes music.  It's a lot about the convenience.  The only thing DRM helps with is with making things more difficult for legitimate consumers.  Let us say I buy a song from my parents computer and use a flash drive to transfer that song to my computer.  It didn't work because of the DRM.  Then awhile ago, Apple removed the DRM from it's music. 


Spotify/Netflix/Steam

All companies that are moving in the right direction giving consumers what they want and guess they all have DRM.

Problem is that Xb1 did not point the benefits of going digital in a effective way...

Sony capitalized with there marketing after E3...

XB1 took a big hit management forced to give in...

Eventually consoles next generation maybe even this generation will go all digital I will not mind...DRM or not 



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the-pi-guy said:
silentdj151 said:


Spotify/Netflix/Steam

All companies that are moving in the right direction giving consumers what they want and guess they all have DRM.

Problem is that Xb1 did not point the benefits of going digital in a effective way...

Sony capitalized with there marketing after E3...

XB1 took a big hit management forced to give in...

Eventually consoles next generation maybe even this generation will go all digital I will not mind...DRM or not 

Not many people have a problem with digital DRM, that's not what the "180" was about.  It was about the removal of DRM for physical media.  I can almost  guarantee that Xbox One will have DRM for downloaded titles, so will PS4.  Just like PS3.  A huge advantage with physical media over digital is the ability to give your friends the game to borrow or sell it without restrictions.  I don't know all of the things that MS was going to do, but from the sounds of it, effectively Physical == Digital for Xbox One.  The online check in was the big point for a lot of people also.  Steam doesn't have that, well as far as I'm aware.  Netflix is an odd point...  Netflix is only used for streaming and DVD rentals.  DVDs all have their DRM, but they don't have any DRM that would stop me from going to a friend's house and playing the DVD in their DVD player.  

I've never used spotify though.  

Next Generation of consoles will go all digital if you want, but at this point it's optional.  Every game released physically will also be released digitally.  Already confirmed for PS4, Xbox One, PS Vita, (I believe 3DS might also be pushing for this, but I don't think they have as much as the other 3.) 

Once again...

HUH?

Steam took a product pc games that were traditionally sold on physical media cd/dvd

and made it digital with DRM...offering lower prices then the physical copy...now everyone sells pc games via digital with some sort of drm

if your counter argument is going to be...pc games were only licenses to play the game in the first place...the same can be said about console games all you do is buy a license to play the game you never acutually own it.

However, you can trade in your physical console game copy to ebgames for below market value or resell it yourself on amazon...ebay...craigslist for market rate.

So, I don't care about reselling console games ussually the trade in value is nothing or it takes to much time and effort to resell at market value...basically diminishing returns...

I'm not sure I get your argument or point



I do not think there are any benefits to physical copy (diminishing returns)

I am not sure if you guys get it but eventually we out grow devices or they turn into bricks because everything fails.

For example my FF1/2 cartridge use to load on my NES but it would save anymore...then eventually the nes just stop working but it did work for over a decade. So now:

If I want to play final fantasy 1 or 2 I go play it on my pc on emulator or psp or phone...

There is always a work around...I do not fear Digital Only



the-pi-guy said:
silentdj151 said:
I do not think there are any benefits to physical copy (diminishing returns)

I am not sure if you guys get it but eventually we out grow devices or they turn into bricks because everything fails.

For example my FF1/2 cartridge use to load on my NES but it would save anymore...then eventually the nes just stop working but it did work for over a decade. So now:

If I want to play final fantasy 1 or 2 I go play it on my pc on emulator or psp or phone...

There is always a work around...I do not fear Digital Only

I'm not sure you know what diminishing returns actually means...  

Digital copies are stored on physical media, whether that is a disk, a cartridge or even a hard drive, it's still physically stored.  If it's being stored on a server, it can become expensive to hold up.  It costs companies money to keep a game on a server.  Not a lot, but if it's not worth it to who ever is holding the server, they close it.  They could use that space for a different game.  

I can't take a HDD to my friends house if it's formatted for my system.  There's advantages to Physical media, it doesn't take up that much space on a HDD, no download period and it's more accessible in the way that I can take it to my friends house.  On a 500 GB HDD, you could only download a game like Uncharted 3 about 10 times, but I could buy as many physical copies as I want.  I don't think many people fear digital only, it's just not as feasible as you think it is.    

The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant ("ceteris paribus"), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1]

The production of Physical media is negative...

Both consumers and business get a higher return on a digital only.  (steam/spotify/netflix are perfect case studies)

Since in this case the physical media is loaded onto the drive of the system all the physical media is used for at that point is verifiy the license...

Last time I played a ps3 game I had to do a large install before I could play the game

On Xbox 360 I can choose to play the game off the physical disc but in order to play online I have install updates for the game



theprof00 said:
darkknightkryta said:

There was a bit more; the idea behind the family sharing plan.  If what that supposed employee of MS was saying is true, then sharing games sent you to the game's page on the Live Store.  This apparently, is what cause Gamestop to say "FU" to MS.  Trying to control the used game segment, and then try to take away new sales, Gamestop didn't like that one bit.  Apparently BenVTrigger was hinting that this was the case on top of the low pre-orders, when the situation occured.  He hasn't logged in in a while and I'm not sure if he's allowed to verify it.  He did mention about Gamestop killing pre-orders to us though.

Well, without benV to confirm, it's hard to figure out exactly what the cause was. I did read all his posts during the time, and nothing was really hinting at what the reasoning could be.

That being said, I do think you theory could be part of the puzzle, but allow me to also provide you with some corner pieces.

1. The system for trading in used games required the integration of the windows azure cloud platform into the gamestop functionality. While some members here swore that it must have been free for "trusted partners" (ironic, since gamestop was not to be trusted lol), the very fact that they'd have to alter their entire POS to accomodate for a new network could have been, at the least a hassle, and at the most, costly..not to mention that it's an online database, not an in-store one...which they currently use.

2. The trade in system took a piece of the pie, gave it to devs, and took another slice and gave it to microsoft (for whatever reason) and it also set trade in prices. That's not just revenue they're controlling, it's everything.

3. Two part:
a) The family share as explained by MS reps said you could share unlimited with 10 people. If that isn't a big middle finger to gamestop I dunno what is. That being said, it's hard to believe MS would part with 90% of sales. Just looking at the ps3 share program with 3 copies for friends, was quickly axed in order to fix revenue.
b) The share program as explained by the anonymous AMA program only allowed timed demos. This wouldn't have been a big deal, but like you said, it did direct them to purchase digitally, which might have been a problem for gamestop.

4. The console itself. We heard no details regarding trade-ins and how they could be returned or fixed for that matter.

 

Now, another thing we know is that the digital program would have given gamestop a pretty big share of reseller market. With mom and pop shops unable to integrate with azure, and ebay and amazon basically untrustworthy for resale, gamestop would've seen significantly more traffic.

What we can deduce here, is that the extra profits from this additional traffic was offset by the downsides, and likely by a large amount. Breaking even wouldn't have been such a concern as to stop pre-orders.
We can't really theorize as to what this variable income would have been, but if we were able to, it could help pinpoint exactly where the problem stemmed from.

I could theorize that the added traffic at lower margins could have played a part, necessitating higher overhead for more workers and upgrades, as well as the loss of freedom to price how they wanted ultimately decided the change of course. Without the azure system, the whole strategy is kaput. It makes a lot of sense then, why MS took away virtually everything they were offering when all us consumers were simply saying "just remove these parts". Obviously, you can't remove parts of it piecemeal if the core system is missing.

You are absolutely right.  Ultimately something went down with Gamestop and they pulled a power play.  MS had no choice but to conceede.  Thing is, if Gamestop wasn't getting a bad deal, MS would have pushed this through regardless of what people said.



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darkknightkryta said:

You are absolutely right.  Ultimately something went down with Gamestop and they pulled a power play.  MS had no choice but to conceede.  Thing is, if Gamestop wasn't getting a bad deal, MS would have pushed this through regardless of what people said.

I super agree. They had no interest in fixing this for the consumers.



theprof00 said:
darkknightkryta said:

You are absolutely right.  Ultimately something went down with Gamestop and they pulled a power play.  MS had no choice but to conceede.  Thing is, if Gamestop wasn't getting a bad deal, MS would have pushed this through regardless of what people said.

I super agree. They had no interest in fixing this for the consumers.

I'll probably get flack for what I'm going to say now, but this is the reason why I have no intention of buying an Xbox One or any future MS console.  They said "FU" to us and the only reason why they backpedalled was because an equal anti consumer company said no, and it wasn't on our behalf.



darkknightkryta said:
theprof00 said:
darkknightkryta said:

You are absolutely right.  Ultimately something went down with Gamestop and they pulled a power play.  MS had no choice but to conceede.  Thing is, if Gamestop wasn't getting a bad deal, MS would have pushed this through regardless of what people said.

I super agree. They had no interest in fixing this for the consumers.

I'll probably get flack for what I'm going to say now, but this is the reason why I have no intention of buying an Xbox One or any future MS console.  They said "FU" to us and the only reason why they backpedalled was because an equal anti consumer company said no, and it wasn't on our behalf.

Sure you'll get some flack, but don't sweat it, it's misdirected.

The proof is in the pre-orders. A lot of people are thinking the same way, and it's not just the Sony fans who are talking shit.



Goatseye said:
fauzman said:
Goatseye said:

You have to be mentally unstable to trust a corporation that is trying to make money. But I like MS the most out of 3 because they're not scared of making choices and games that I like.
They're natural leaders and not "Mr me too".

I'm very excited for Illumiroom, the goggles thing and to see how Kinect 2.0 will fare this time. And Killer Instinct.

Lol. Kinda ironic considering they have done a full reversal and are following the pack of Nintendo and Sony in a lot of ways. 

OT - its all about reputation and MS generally seems to have a much lower one than either Nintendo or Sony. Microsoft's reputation was very high when they started this gen and  has gone down steadily ever since. Sony had a horrible start but its efforts to remedy its slow start means it has gained a lot of kudos and loyal fans since. Sony seem not to have considered drm from day one and have stated so and I for one totally believe them. Sony seem a bit more aware of regional issues and more considering of the fact that not everyone everywhere will have good broadband so I dontbelieve they considered any sort of logging-in-regularly drm. MS, imo, seems to focus on the US to an unhealthy amount and I can see them not considering the effect outside the US.

Put simply if Sony and MS said the same thing, I would believe Sony but look at MS as if they were putting one over on me.

You mean like Sony is following 360? Kinecteye, paid subscription etc... Sony didn't do anything, if MS did something was to reverse it's policies to the existing ones. You could argue that the Kinect is following the Eye Toy. Still either way this is irrelevant - I was commenting specifically regarding their reversals and them going from being very different from the ps4, to now being verysimilar to the ps4.

MS's reputation is just lower to you folks that don't do business  with them. That's your job, to nag at everything they do although you don't buy from them. Thats just a stupid excuse - we dont do business with themso we dont like them? I dont have a single Apple product but still prefer them to MS. MS is perceived a certain way and while no doubt it will be difficult for them to change this image, they have the money and the pr ability to do this should they want to. 

Sony didn't give a damn about your choices, they left the DRM to 3rd parties and never advocated for their peasants. But you believe in a money making giant corporation, there's nothing I can do about that. Disagree. They listened to how people would react and decided to stick with the current system. And everyone's happy with that. Yep Sony are a money making corporation but they make a much better job of listening to their consumers. And so far they have generally not disproved my trust in them.  

Unhealthy amount of attention from MS in US(and UK). Well, I would've done the same to tell you the thruth. Those are the two countries that treat them for what they are(business company) instead of most of the countries that treat them like American imperial flagship. I know a lot of people in Europe don't buy Xbox because it's "Amurican". Japan, about the same. In 2008,2009 MS pumped the most JRPG out of 3 but didn't move a niquel in that area. You are likely correct about MS in Japan. I would disagree with XB in Europe - the XB didnt do as great there because people over the prev. 3 gens have generally been satisfied with the PS consoles AND because the XB didnt have many games (other than Forza) that catered to them. You are right about focusing on key markets but Sony simply seem to be better at including various regions/countries with their  consoles.

X1 is the most ambitious console out of the 3 and it makes sense for MS as they didn't just want to upgrade their graphics card(like the competition). Ambitious yes, smart clearly not. 

I wasnt really trying to get in a pissing contest, simply pointing out that to me and no doubt to the majority of people, the brand sony gives is (or at least seems to be) is much much better than brand MS. And everything I have seen so far over the years seems to convince me of this - you only have to look at the multiplayer policies for both the XBO and ps4. One puts nearly all apps behind a paywall, the otherhas free games with the MP. Says a lot to me.



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Goatseye said:

You have to be mentally unstable to trust a corporation that is trying to make money. But I like MS the most out of 3 because they're not scared of making choices and games that I like.
They're natural leaders and not "Mr me too".

I'm very excited for Illumiroom, the goggles thing and to see how Kinect 2.0 will fare this time. And Killer Instinct.


Interesting. The only successful games that were concieved of MS thus far are Fable, Crackdown, Project Gotham, Forza, Kinectimals, Kinect Sports and Kinect Adventures. 

This makes them a natural leader?

Halo was not concieved by MS and neither was the Kinect. They were both already in development and MS invested in them after they bought their companies.