Both of you need to dial it back a bit.  This is not the way to have such a discussion.  

Well, I think I leave it to johnlucas who will answer soon...no time for writing and explaining that much ... 

There's nothing to explain. Heard of Occam's Razor? Making a simple scenario hoplessly convoluted in order to find some semblance of hope for the Wii U isn't a good road to go down. Casuals are gone, gamers want either the XB1 or PS4, leaving the Wii U a very, very small market. 

Nintendo fans have already bought the 3DS. On november 22 they will buy the WiiU. And as we all know, there are millions upon millions of 3DS owners. Most of them will not be able to resist WiiU on november 22. John Lucas will recieve prophetic status when his prediction for the year proves true. It WILL happen. The other consoles will fall, WiiU will prevail!

Believe!

Your attitude in this thread has you treading on thin ice. Cool it.

8-9 million is not possible, not even close.

* Yeah, the Wii U has no competition in Japan and still only managed 16k there last week. In November, no less.

* And some bundles already have, didn't seem to help much, the numbers speak for themselves. Bundles will only take you so far, and; the better the bundle, the bigger the loss for Nintendo, they can't ride it out like that for long before investors start raising eyebrows.

* Super Mario launched with the console, resulting in the Wii U still being sold off of the initial shipment, a whole year after launch, whereas the Wii was largely outsold and supply constrained for a couple of years, if not more. Growth? The attach rate for most Nintendo franchises have gone down since N64 and Gamecube but the installed base of the Wii was massive, over twice as big as their second largest home console base ever. Higher numbers? Sure. But lower attach rate, not the sign of growth, as it were. If attach rates remain level, these franchises will take a dip on the charts in numbers, by a great deal at that. Unless you believe that the Wii U will have a 100 million + installed base, this is irrelevant. I hope not...

* "Casuals" stopped caring about home consoles some time ago, they're gaming on phones/tablets and browser/social games. Casuals left less and less money in the home consoles market and the tablet/phone and browser/social games market grew a whole lot during the same period. Not merely a coincidence. Nintendo assumed they were still around, they're not and now they've gone and released a console aimed at both casuals and hardcore, completely missing both, the results are clear on the sales charts.

* Granted, Nintendo are strong in holiday season, you can't hinge your entire fiscal year on that though, and the fact that a price cut, new software and added value through bundles have resulted in such a poor start of the holiday could indicate the Wii U having a fairly bad holiday season, even the Wii was beaten two years ago. With the PS4 and One boxing in the Wii U as well the continued presence of the 360 and PS3, it's going to have a damn hard time getting much attention for the rest of the year. Going up against large pre-orders and launch hype paired with selling less than a third of the best selling 7th gen console last week shows just how bad this could get.

We will continue to wait, even if the Wii U should manage to scrape through the holiday season alright, the weekly numbers are likely to plunge again if my theory holds, Q1 and Q2 will be telling. All in all; the Wii U is in the middle of a crisis and could well be the first console to get severely thrashed following a market leader (no, the PS3 cannot be compared here, it's climbed to 2nd place overall and looks to finish really close to the market leader), the circumstances under which the generation shift took place between the Wii and the Wii U were highly abnormal to begin with (complete loss of momentum, being carried over to the Wii U).

All we're hearing is; "just wait" and "the 3DS bounced back, the Wii U will do the same", both arguments are worthless as they stand. Like I said; the Wii U is in a crisis but there are a bunch of people who refuse to see it and will continue to refuse. This isn't "doom and gloom", this is the current, factual, observeable situation on the home console market.

Do you even realize that the point of an "evergreen" title is that it sells well over a long period of time instead of being frontloaded?  So wouldn't that imply that its system selling power would also be less dramatic near the game's launch, instead of more?  (Compared with a non-evergreen title that can be expected to have a similar lifetime sales.) 

No, the onus is yours because it's you that are discomfortable about the list I showed. If you just have a destructive talk, if you can't do better than what you criticize, then you're worthless in this forum.

In regards to your claim about me moving the goalpost, go to page 134 and see this that I've said: "As for the best sellers, in the top 27 I see 23 Nintendo games!...So I prefer to assess the commitment of a dev and the depth of a game through their outcome in regards to objective parameters (in order to keep tastes aside and keep me lucid in the analysis).". See? "Commitment of a dev" in the very same subject. In fact, I've been talking about it for quite some time. Maybe now it's not very convenient for you admit you're wrong but this is an undeniable fact.

Regarding the "we", I wasn't talking about metrics but objective parameters. I will not say it again and again. If you read my posts you already know that subjectivity allows different opinions and objectivity doesn't. Subjectively good games maybe good for you and bad for somebody else. If you don't understand tastes vary from person to person, I'm done here. And, by the way, my equation isn't about good or bad games, it's about the devs' attitude towards their customers. How much they work, how much they spend and how much they do substantially (objective achievements). Talking specifically about Nintendo, their games have great sales, great critic grades and great compliments from the fanbase. Everybody says the king has clothes. But I've challenged Final-Fan (and I can challenge you or anybody else) to prove me the king really has clothes. So far, the king is nacked.

How do you prove me Nintendo games do have quality? Just because you say so? Just because reviewers say so? What if the king has no clothes? Look, this is not relative. If something has value just because each one of us think that the others think it has, then maybe that something doesn't really have value and underneath truth will appear with the first person breaking the logic. Same thing with the story of the king that didn't have clothes.

So losing money on every console sold is greed in your opinion...ok, I'm done here. Look at the revenue sources of PlayStation (games that drop the price and few accessories) and compare them to the ones from Nintendo (consoles, games that don't drop the price and many accessories). Look at the yearly profits made by PlayStation since its beginning and compare them to the ones from Nintendo. Then, come back to talk to me.

Regarding your money, yes, you are investing it in platforms that are focused on gaming...on the consumers' end. Because what they are really focused is in making money so badly they couldn't even think about attempting for a tech leap like a new optical drive. A company that isn't capable of moving from it's comfort zone, that is still making games with the same formula since the 80's, that remains on the cartoonish style graphics, that doesn't accept creating high-budget games, that doesn't accept to lose money on each console sold, that doesn't accept dropping the games' prices, that sells overpriced accessories (for example, 10 euros for a piece of plastic that has no tech at all), etc...that is greed in my opinion. Nintendo is that kind of company I don't see bending before any crysis. They either grow as a greedy company or they die as one. They would rather die greedy than survive seeing their IP's going to PlayStation or Xbox.

Tell me about the objectively good gameplay features of a Nintendo game.

Yes, there is. Specially when there are points "commonly known and accepted" that go against other points "commonly known and accepted" as well. In this case, the best definition is the one that comprises the least number or significance of incoherences.

I see it like this: Just Dance for example has rather low sales in its first week compared to the second/third week and so on when sales rose suddenly up. Especially within December the whole bunch of bundles will truly unleash their power ;)

I believe Sony inadvertently revealed the release date of Mario Kart 8 with their Infamous: Second Son reveal. It makes sense given Nintendo's current software release strategies.