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Forums - General - Argument from nonbelief

 

Do you agree with it?

Yes 17 34.00%
 
No 33 66.00%
 
Total:50
NintendoPie on 25 July 2013
Carl2291 said:

Reminds me of a funny meme

 

Were there ever any Ice Giants to begin with? I somehow doubt it...



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Jay520 on 25 July 2013
ListerOfSmeg said:

If we all knew there was indeed a An omnipotent God who genuinely wanted to have a relationship with everyone would have given everyone reasonable and fair means to find him. "

God, we would all follow him.  Silly argument there. What reason would God have to want everyone to follow him? He is just after the best. Not the worst. You dont see humans true side by standing over them. You are trying to out think a being that knows and understands you better than you do.


Wrong on 2 levels

1. "God, we would all follow him.  Silly argument there. What reason would God have to want everyone to follow him?"

Just because people have fair and reasonable means to find him doesn't mean they would. And even if they did find him, that doesn't mean they would follow him. Plenty of people believe in God, yet reject him. The most popular example is Satan. There are plenty more in modern times too. We even have a member on this site who believes in God and hates him.

2. "He is just after the best. Not the worst. "

So you're saying God is after the best? He wants good people to follow him? If that were the case, he would give every good person a reasonable and fair chance to find him. But that's not the case. Plenty of good people don't have a chance to follow God.

3. Also, are you saying that an all-loving God would not want to have a loving relationship with every human, even though He loves every human (depending on your interpretation)? 



miz1q2w3e on 25 July 2013

I always enjoy reading these threads.



Jay520 on 25 July 2013
NintendoPie said:

Were there ever any Ice Giants to begin with? I somehow doubt it...


Obviously Odin scared away all ice giants before they even showed up. Doesn't get much more effective than that.



Aielyn on 25 July 2013
Jay520 said:
Aielyn said:

I see three flaws.

1. Why must an existing god be "perfectly loving"? One could certainly envisage a god that is capable of... forsaking a person.

2. Why must a god being open to personal relationship with each person necessarily mean that, in the absence of resistance, they must be aware of the relationship? That's like suggesting that, because some people weren't aware of the existence of air despite their dependence on it, therefore air can't exist.

3. Can you prove that there exists people who are neither resistant nor aware of this god's existence? Otherwise, that predicate remains untested.

Mind you, I lack a belief in any deity. Without evidence supporting existence, I default to the position of non-existence. But one cannot prove nonexistence, just as one cannot prove that there has never existed a unicorn.

1. Fair

2. Bad analogy. Unless air was (a) all-powerful, and (b) wanted everyone to have the opportunity to become aware of its existence. An all-powerful and all-loving God would want to have a loving relationship with every human; and would thus give everyone a fair and reasonable opportunity to form such a relationship (see below).

3. For one, people who have never been introduced to God, among others too.

2. Analogy doesn't require every subtle feature to apply, only the general properties. The relevant property, here, is that air is ever-present and yet invisible, and essentially necessary for life.

3. One doesn't necessarily have to identify the presence as "god" in order to be aware of it. It is fallacious to assume that awareness of a relationship means understanding of that relationship. Some could just as easily think that the "presence" is really their own courage, or their conscience, or their inner voice, depending on how that awareness is supposed to manifest itself in those who do believe (not being a believer, myself, I can't really be sure).



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NintendoPie on 25 July 2013
Jay520 said:


Obviously Odin scared away all ice giants before they even showed up. Doesn't get much more effective than that.

Now that's something worth rewarding. 



happydolphin on 25 July 2013

I have a question for you, son.

If you are going to prove the world that God does not exist, what is your conviction?



Aielyn on 25 July 2013
NintendoPie said:
Carl2291 said:

Reminds me of a funny meme

Were there ever any Ice Giants to begin with? I somehow doubt it...

According to Norse tradition, there were. Why would Norse tradition be any less valid than Jewish/Christian tradition?



NintendoPie on 25 July 2013
Aielyn said:

According to Norse tradition, there were. Why would Norse tradition be any less valid than Jewish/Christian tradition?

Is this a serious question? If so, I don't know how to reply.



happydolphin on 25 July 2013
Aielyn said:
Jay520 said:

1. Fair

2. Bad analogy. Unless air was (a) all-powerful, and (b) wanted everyone to have the opportunity to become aware of its existence. An all-powerful and all-loving God would want to have a loving relationship with every human; and would thus give everyone a fair and reasonable opportunity to form such a relationship (see below).

3. For one, people who have never been introduced to God, among others too.

2. Analogy doesn't require every subtle feature to apply, only the general properties. The relevant property, here, is that air is ever-present and yet invisible, and essentially necessary for life.

3. One doesn't necessarily have to identify the presence as "god" in order to be aware of it. It is fallacious to assume that awareness of a relationship means understanding of that relationship. Some could just as easily think that the "presence" is really their own courage, or their conscience, or their inner voice, depending on how that awareness is supposed to manifest itself in those who do believe (not being a believer, myself, I can't really be sure).

I agree with your point 3 aielyn.The belief is that God is just and that some day, whether in this life or the next, God will have revealed himself so that no one is without reason before God to justly refuse him.

It wouldn't make sense any other way.