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Forums - General - So Detroit is now Bankrupt...

Mr Khan said:
PATRIOT7GAMING said:
killerzX said:
 

thats an utter ridiculous lie, and you know it.

8 hr work days with above minimum wage was implemented without unions. (see: henry ford)

and if a company decides it wants to implement a 16 hr work week and pays its employees a couple bucks, i say let them. and let see how many people decide to work for them, and how long they stay in business with those kinds of business practices.

you really dont have any concept of reality when it comes to how markets and businesses operate, do you?

 

 

"The way i see it why should the lazy executive get millions and yet the hard working people who make the products, the workers get barely enough to live on?"

 seriously or you guys trying to be parodies of communists? is this some kind of joke. ceo's dont work? only their employees are hard working? I would like to see a company be run without a ceo, or with one of those "hard working people" be the ceo, and see how long the company stays solvent.

and those poor working, forced into slave labor, getting paid pennies a day, being abused by their bloodsucking bosses. dont make me laugh


Unions do tons of overpay and uncessary work. They sound good but when you look into they don't. Besides Unions are the reason why Hostess and USPS.

Hostess negotiated with their union in bad faith. They once told the workers to dodge a pay raise for the good of the company as a whole (to avoid bankruptcy!) the workers did so, the first time. Trouble was, Hostess took those savings and spent them on Executive Pay and the company continued to nosedive. So the *second* time Hostess came around and told the Union "pay cut or we go broke." The Union rightfully said "screw you."

On the part of the US Postal Service, aside from their collapsing revenue base (direct bulk mailing is what keeps them afloat now), the thing really crippling them is their "you must pre-fund your pensions for 75 years" thing, a law which was passed, by Republicans, specifically to cripple the USPS.

There are examples of greedy unions out there, but Hostess and USPS are both examples of right-wing malice and/or incompetence.

Hostess has had several long background of money problems due to the unions, so it isn't just this one issue you talking about. You think it is easily affordable to pay everyone crazy high and overstaff? There are limits and Hostess met them. 

USPS cripples itself because of the fact the people are sick of how crappy their workers are with customer service and people like using fed ex and UPS for mailing other things. Workers should get paid so much if their service is terrible. Point of a lot of unions is just get overpaid, hardly do your best, have to many people do one thing when one person can do it themselves.  Republicans? Is that that only party you can blame? Democrats are part of the blame since they put the country in massive debt.



Started gaming on PS3 3/6/14 :)

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TheLastStarFighter said:
 The major problem in today's western economy is that for decades manufacturing has been moving to Asia. You can't constantly be funneling money from your country into another for all of your manufactured goods and expect it not to eventually destroy your economy. Western countries desperately need to tariff countries where manufacturing workers are not well compensated in order to create a fair global economy. The problem is not that workers in the US (or elsewhere) are too well paid, but that workers in other countries are not paid well enough. Executives for large corporations have managed to convince many in the public that US workers are spoiled as an excuse to use near-slave labour in other countries. US voters should be demanding trade tariffs so that UAW members are not looked at as getting too much, but rather so that other workers in other manufacturing sectors can also be making as much.

I had this talk with my dad; I feel free trade on manufactured products should be abolished.  His response was "Anyone getting rid of free trade is going to be assassinated".



darkknightkryta said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
 The major problem in today's western economy is that for decades manufacturing has been moving to Asia. You can't constantly be funneling money from your country into another for all of your manufactured goods and expect it not to eventually destroy your economy. Western countries desperately need to tariff countries where manufacturing workers are not well compensated in order to create a fair global economy. The problem is not that workers in the US (or elsewhere) are too well paid, but that workers in other countries are not paid well enough. Executives for large corporations have managed to convince many in the public that US workers are spoiled as an excuse to use near-slave labour in other countries. US voters should be demanding trade tariffs so that UAW members are not looked at as getting too much, but rather so that other workers in other manufacturing sectors can also be making as much.

I had this talk with my dad; I feel free trade on manufactured products should be abolished.  His response was "Anyone getting rid of free trade is going to be assassinated".

THAT is essentially the problem.  Large corporations are making a lot of money off cheap labour in foreign countries.  Every political candidate depends on some level of corporate backing.  So no candidate will curb free trade in anyway.

Free trade is good if it's a level playing field.  When some countries have slave labour, it's not level.

The problem is these US corporations are being short-sighted. By moving manufacturing jobs to foreign countries, there is no one in your home market to buy your product.  That is slowly the way the western countries are moving.



TheLastStarFighter said:

THAT is essentially the problem.  Large corporations are making a lot of money off cheap labour in foreign countries.  Every political candidate depends on some level of corporate backing.  So no candidate will curb free trade in anyway.

Free trade is good if it's a level playing field.  When some countries have slave labour, it's not level.

The problem is these US corporations are being short-sighted. By moving manufacturing jobs to foreign countries, there is no one in your home market to buy your product.  That is slowly the way the western countries are moving.

I think there's another problem here; the U.S. dollar.  If any country printed the same amount of money as the U.S.  government has and accumulate the amount of debt that that's been accumulated, prices of goods would be ridiculously high and the dollar would devalue to crap.  This hasn't happened yet; so corporations keep on doing what they want.  There's no threat to them and politicians keep on bending over to them.



timmah said:

This is why the idea that companies could somehow drop wages as described by some here is patently wrong. Those who think this way fail to understand what competition is and how the cause and effect plays out in this scenario. They act as if people are helpless saps who can't think for themselves, so the benevolent government must step in to make the big, bad businesses not trample the poor, helpless, mindless masses underfoot. In reality...

First, we need to set up some parameters...

  • Smart business people recognize the fact that they need good, hard-working employees to be successful
  • Stupid business people mistreat or underpay employees, failing to recognize cause and effect for this action
  • Smart employees are generally good, hard-working employees, because they realize that good employees get paid more
  • Smart employees are smart enough to look for another job or work on developing other skills if they are underpaid or mistreated

Based on these parameters...

  • Smart employers will offer competitive pay in order to keep good/smart employees, therefore maintaining a quality business
  • Stupid business owners will underpay employees
  • Smart employees leave stupid employer for smart employer and better pay
  • Smart business owner hires smart, hard-working employees to gain a competitive edge
  • Stupid and/or lazy employees stay with stupid business owner
  • Stupid business owner's business fails due to poor service
  • Smart business owner's business prospors, hires more employees at reasonable rate
  • The cycle continues


Ideologically, this is great.  Unfortunately in our current reality, it's not the truth.

The fundamental problem is why pay a smart, hardworking employee $50,000 a year when you can pay a smart, hardworking foreign worker $5000?

If a worker at a competing company is willing to take a 30% pay cut because he is scared of his job being moved out of conutry or outsourced to a non-unionized specialty firm, why wouldn't you cut your own company wages 20%?  You'd still be the better employer, attracting the better workers.

The western global economy is in decline due to outsourcing the highly paid manufactuing sector to Asia decades ago.  The impact is being felt now, and will be felt even stronger in the future without drastic policy changes.



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Kasz216 said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
 American car companies have just always been very inefficient and slow to adapt. Poorly designed vehicles, poor quality and ridiculous levels of redundancy (To think that Chrysler's new Pentastar engine replaced something like 6 or 8 crappy, different V6's used throughout their company line!!?!?!).

That in of itself is pretty unfair.   The US Automakers were set for HUGE returns with well made cars.  The problem was, those cars were SUV's and the SUV bubble burst due to all the crazy gas price increases.

No, they were set up for solid returns with high-margian cars, which were SUV's and trucks.  They weren't necessarily well-built, just people were willing to pay for them.  And the bubble didn't burst so much as the whole market went into a 7-month black whole, and the US company business model was so poor that 2/3 couldn't survive it.

Decades ago my father worked for a steel company that supplied material for GM.  GM specifically requested that the steel be made to corrode after 3 years so that the vehicles would need to be replaced.  American car companies have come a long way since then, but at the point of the economic collapse they were still archaic in many aspects of their business.  Redundent models, engines,... making no money off most of your vehicles and depending on big ticket items for profit.  Poor quality entry-level products.  Everything about the business practices were terrible.  And this is coming from someone who likes American cars.



darkknightkryta said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
 

THAT is essentially the problem.  Large corporations are making a lot of money off cheap labour in foreign countries.  Every political candidate depends on some level of corporate backing.  So no candidate will curb free trade in anyway.

Free trade is good if it's a level playing field.  When some countries have slave labour, it's not level.

The problem is these US corporations are being short-sighted. By moving manufacturing jobs to foreign countries, there is no one in your home market to buy your product.  That is slowly the way the western countries are moving.

I think there's another problem here; the U.S. dollar.  If any country printed the same amount of money as the U.S.  government has and accumulate the amount of debt that that's been accumulated, prices of goods would be ridiculously high and the dollar would devalue to crap.  This hasn't happened yet; so corporations keep on doing what they want.  There's no threat to them and politicians keep on bending over to them.

Printing the dollar is essentially an attempt to turn the US into China.  Rather than force China up to American standards, the approach has been to bring the US down to theirs.  It's sad.  The debt is a whole other terrible issue.  Invading countries for no reason has taken its toll.  The US has so much debt per citizen right now I don't know if it will ever climb out of the hole.



TheLastStarFighter said:
darkknightkryta said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
 

THAT is essentially the problem.  Large corporations are making a lot of money off cheap labour in foreign countries.  Every political candidate depends on some level of corporate backing.  So no candidate will curb free trade in anyway.

Free trade is good if it's a level playing field.  When some countries have slave labour, it's not level.

The problem is these US corporations are being short-sighted. By moving manufacturing jobs to foreign countries, there is no one in your home market to buy your product.  That is slowly the way the western countries are moving.

I think there's another problem here; the U.S. dollar.  If any country printed the same amount of money as the U.S.  government has and accumulate the amount of debt that that's been accumulated, prices of goods would be ridiculously high and the dollar would devalue to crap.  This hasn't happened yet; so corporations keep on doing what they want.  There's no threat to them and politicians keep on bending over to them.

Printing the dollar is essentially an attempt to turn the US into China.  Rather than force China up to American standards, the approach has been to bring the US down to theirs.  It's sad.  The debt is a whole other terrible issue.  Invading countries for no reason has taken its toll.  The US has so much debt per citizen right now I don't know if it will ever climb out of the hole.

Yes, but why hasn't the U.S. dollar depreciate to crap like it should have already?  What's keeping it up?



darkknightkryta said:
TheLastStarFighter said:

Printing the dollar is essentially an attempt to turn the US into China.  Rather than force China up to American standards, the approach has been to bring the US down to theirs.  It's sad.  The debt is a whole other terrible issue.  Invading countries for no reason has taken its toll.  The US has so much debt per citizen right now I don't know if it will ever climb out of the hole.

Yes, but why hasn't the U.S. dollar depreciate to crap like it should have already?  What's keeping it up?

I think every country is printing money, and deflating the values of their currencies. so while the dollar is worth less, so is every thing else, so in comparison they dont change much against each other. everyone just pays more for everything



darkknightkryta said:
TheLastStarFighter said:

Printing the dollar is essentially an attempt to turn the US into China.  Rather than force China up to American standards, the approach has been to bring the US down to theirs.  It's sad.  The debt is a whole other terrible issue.  Invading countries for no reason has taken its toll.  The US has so much debt per citizen right now I don't know if it will ever climb out of the hole.

Yes, but why hasn't the U.S. dollar depreciate to crap like it should have already?  What's keeping it up?

The US isn't totally in the shitter.  It's just trending in the wrong direction.  There is still lots to love about the US, and it's still way better than most the world.  I think of it like a small town that lost a major industry that was in business for 200 years.  The town doesn't instantly die.  There are people collecting employment insurance.  There are retired folk that can live on their pensions for decades.  There people that did other things, and people that are willing to kick around town making much less than they made working at the industry so long as they can stay.  Eventually the impact will be felt of the closer, but not for decades.  There will be less money coming in, less wealth but it takes time to see it.

That is the US right now.  There is lots of accumulated wealth.  Much of the meat and potatoes manufacturing is gone, and every year more wealth is funnelled out of the US and into China with every pair of sneakers purchased.  But it takes a long time for China to become rich and the US poor.  The nature of capitalism probably means that before the two nations are equal, the flow of wealth will slow or reverse, but major damage is done each day, slowly.