fordy said: cablebox said: fordy said: S.T.A.G.E. said: fordy said: But at what cost? There is no cost. Theres nothing digital downloads can do to be superior to be superior to physical disc. Once the disc is gone the rights to ownership and full DRM can be formed. DRM Paywalls, taking profit from Gamestop and second hand money from gamers, it all had to go. We had to fight off Microsoft. This is one of the greatest victories with millions of voices in tune against Microsoft.  Yeah, let's forget all about the convenience of not having to need to use the disc once it's been installed, since DRM handles the whole copy check for you. Anything to put Microsoft in a worse light to you guys, right? Hey, what they did WAS short sighted, but if you truly think that their only intention was to screw over consumers, and blurt it out in such an open and honest way, then that makes your own argument even more shortsighted than Microsoft was.... Download digitally problem solved, no cost to you, more choice for me As I've mentioned in other threads, Microsoft's vision was more likely to be able to have a seamless integration of physical media and digital distribution, since this generation is most likely going to be similar to a transitional phase from one medium to the other. Why do you think I called their idea short-sighted?

The mighty cloud is still there ain't it? What's so hard in putting your disc in the drive if it's so annoying just download it from xbl. People keep saying digital is the future yet the biggest digital platform out there, Steam, only has 54 milion users, and it took 10+ years to reach that number. The internet infrastructure is not even there yet in NA so many people still have slow internet and would not be able to download their games in reasonable amount of time.

fordy said: S.T.A.G.E. said: Zappykins said: We own nothing with DRM...and no it couldn't have worked online because they cannot watch you which was their full intention despite the DRM. Microsoft was going to play Watchdogs, and you would be the apple of their eye.  Its amazing that once the American company joins the gaming industry once they attain power they start telling gamers what to do and how to run their experience. No...if you want our money STFU and make our lives easier so we can just enjoy the benefit of being gamers. Microsoft is no company to tell anyone what the future of gaming is. Creatively they arent even great at making games and their only good at OS, thats it. Who are they to tell us what is the future of gaming? They told us Kinect was and it wasnt. They sided with EA and Activision against us and Sony stood up for us giving the people a company to rely upon for some sanity even when Microsoft pressured them into paying for multiplayer. At least Sony gives us a choice, if you don't like multiplayer, don't pay for it and theres plenty people who play on PS brand products who don't. Microsofts no one a choice, its either you're in or you're out. They've never been on our side, they aren't thinking about whats great for our future, only what gives them and the corporate fat cats more money. They can have it if they earn it but figuring out ways to overwhelm our rights is not the way.  Sony's hands aren't clean either. Don't think they're going to champion any kind of consumer's rights with such past scandals such as the Rootkit DRM scandal. Their intention was to force more physical media distribution from Microsoft because they make money that way (see: BluRay royalty/licensing fees).

Sonys hands are not clean and i've always known that Sony supports DRM just as much as Microsoft, but the difference between the gaming industry is that gamers speak loudest with their wallets compared to any other electronics following. This is why Yoshida said DRM was never on their minds. Gamers are the most vocal abot their product ownership. DRM is easily enforced in music and movies, just look at Itunes and digital movies. We have a larger, smarter, more active following and Microsoft just got a taste of it. Sony is no angel and I am not saying that. We can all keep listing the reasons...but Sony with the Playstation knows their place. They know what happened at the beginning of the gen with their slow start and its all their fault. They've gained our respect back.

cablebox said: The mighty cloud is still there ain't it? What's so hard in putting your disc in the drive if it's so annoying just download it from xbl. People keep saying digital is the future yet the biggest digital platform out there, Steam, only has 54 milion users, and it took 10+ years to reach that number. The internet infrastructure is not even there yet in NA so many people still have slow internet and would not be able to download their games in reasonable amount of time.

You do realise that Microsoft's move was most likely a response to Valve's intentions of entering the game console market, right? That makes them direct competitors in digital distribution. The issue is that Steam is online, and looking at things from a progressing standpoint, I'd say that Microsoft's original idea was to have the DRM as optional, but got some kind of ultimaitum from either upper management or third parties (most likely the latter), that they will not support a system that has the potential to lose a used copy to an offline client if the previous purchaser kept it in his account...

S.T.A.G.E. said: fordy said: S.T.A.G.E. said: Zappykins said: We own nothing with DRM...and no it couldn't have worked online because they cannot watch you which was their full intention despite the DRM. Microsoft was going to play Watchdogs, and you would be the apple of their eye.  Its amazing that once the American company joins the gaming industry once they attain power they start telling gamers what to do and how to run their experience. No...if you want our money STFU and make our lives easier so we can just enjoy the benefit of being gamers. Microsoft is no company to tell anyone what the future of gaming is. Creatively they arent even great at making games and their only good at OS, thats it. Who are they to tell us what is the future of gaming? They told us Kinect was and it wasnt. They sided with EA and Activision against us and Sony stood up for us giving the people a company to rely upon for some sanity even when Microsoft pressured them into paying for multiplayer. At least Sony gives us a choice, if you don't like multiplayer, don't pay for it and theres plenty people who play on PS brand products who don't. Microsofts no one a choice, its either you're in or you're out. They've never been on our side, they aren't thinking about whats great for our future, only what gives them and the corporate fat cats more money. They can have it if they earn it but figuring out ways to overwhelm our rights is not the way.  Sony's hands aren't clean either. Don't think they're going to champion any kind of consumer's rights with such past scandals such as the Rootkit DRM scandal. Their intention was to force more physical media distribution from Microsoft because they make money that way (see: BluRay royalty/licensing fees). Sonys hands are not clean, but the difference between the gaming industry is that gamers speak loudest with their wallets compared to any other electronics following. We have a larger, smarter, more active following and Microsoft just got a taste of it. Sony is no angel and I am not saying that. We can all keep listing the reasons...but Sony with the Playstation knows their place. They know what happened at the beginning of the gen with their slow start and its all their fault. They've gained our respect back.

To some of you, they never lost it in the first place...

If you're going to parade around about consumer's rights, maybe you shouldn't go back to the biggest violator of consumer rights within the span of less than one generation. It looks hypocritical....

fordy said: cablebox said: The mighty cloud is still there ain't it? What's so hard in putting your disc in the drive if it's so annoying just download it from xbl. People keep saying digital is the future yet the biggest digital platform out there, Steam, only has 54 milion users, and it took 10+ years to reach that number. The internet infrastructure is not even there yet in NA so many people still have slow internet and would not be able to download their games in reasonable amount of time. You do realise that Microsoft's move was most likely a response to Valve's intentions of entering the game console market, right? That makes them direct competitors in digital distribution. The issue is that Steam is online, and looking at things from a progressing standpoint, I'd say that Microsoft's original idea was to have the DRM as optional, but got some kind of ultimaitum from either upper management or third parties (most likely the latter), that they will not support a system that has the potential to lose a used copy to an offline client if the previous purchaser kept it in his account...

The steam box is digitally only, expensive, it's only targeted at a very small demographic if they thought it was going to be their biggest competitor, well they were wrong. Disc are still more convenient for the masses, until we get fast and cheap Internet connections, digital only platform will never outsell those that are disc based

fordy said: S.T.A.G.E. said: fordy said: But at what cost? There is no cost. Theres nothing digital downloads can do to be superior to be superior to physical disc. Once the disc is gone the rights to ownership and full DRM can be formed. DRM Paywalls, taking profit from Gamestop and second hand money from gamers, it all had to go. We had to fight off Microsoft. This is one of the greatest victories with millions of voices in tune against Microsoft.  Yeah, let's forget all about the convenience of not having to need to use the disc once it's been installed, since DRM handles the whole copy check for you. Anything to put Microsoft in a worse light to you guys, right? Hey, what they did WAS short sighted, but if you truly think that their only intention was to screw over consumers, and blurt it out in such an open and honest way, then that makes your own argument even more shortsighted than Microsoft was....

Why use a disc if you dont value it? If you want to play the game now, buy the disc, if you find it reasonable to download the game then do it fully. Theres no need to go to the store. Digital files as it stand now are still secondary to hard disc. Have you ever thought that its a hassle for some people with crappy internet to download these large games? They are only going to get larger next gen. Its not about trying to demonize Microsoft, Microsoft demonizes themselves because they are a faraway company who looks down upon their consumers and only try to entice you when it suits their interests. When you go to Sonys website at all times Sony is in tune on forums checking out what we have to say. They have a blog to keep us updated on PSN Plus in various regions of the world and tons of outlets. They upload more games onto their Youtube page and have never caused the amount of backlash Microsoft has caused on their Xbox Facebook or Youtube page. You're telling me this is just us? Please, MS is just not in tune with us and they never have been. MS are suits who dug their hand into the gaming cookie jar and wonder why no one thinks they are the cool kid. Want to know why Sony got a standing ovation at E3 and MS never did? Someone said it on Bonus Round, but Sony much like Nintendo and in particular Jack Tretton is seen to be one of the most geniuine businessmen in the industry. Who am I going to trust based on listening? Don Mattrick or Jack Tretton? Tretton every time. He doesn't bullshit and he tells us what were interested in hearing. MS ran around DRM...Sony addressed it head on at E3 like we asked. I used to think Major Nelson was cool when I had an 360 but now I am realizing hes kind of a dick and the way he spoke woke Angry Joe was less than human once Joe called out Microsoft on their mistakes. thousands of fans to report back to and this guy just aired himself to all of them.

cablebox said: fordy said: cablebox said: The mighty cloud is still there ain't it? What's so hard in putting your disc in the drive if it's so annoying just download it from xbl. People keep saying digital is the future yet the biggest digital platform out there, Steam, only has 54 milion users, and it took 10+ years to reach that number. The internet infrastructure is not even there yet in NA so many people still have slow internet and would not be able to download their games in reasonable amount of time. You do realise that Microsoft's move was most likely a response to Valve's intentions of entering the game console market, right? That makes them direct competitors in digital distribution. The issue is that Steam is online, and looking at things from a progressing standpoint, I'd say that Microsoft's original idea was to have the DRM as optional, but got some kind of ultimaitum from either upper management or third parties (most likely the latter), that they will not support a system that has the potential to lose a used copy to an offline client if the previous purchaser kept it in his account... The steam box is digitally only, expensive, it's only targeted at a very small demographic if they thought it was going to be their biggest competitor, well they were wrong. Disc are still more convenient for the masses, until we get fast and cheap Internet connections, digital only platform will never outsell those that are disc based

So you can understand why they'd want to play it safe by trying for some kind of middle-ground, right? There's the Steambox on one side and the PS4 on the other. However, keeping the two as separate mediums on the same console doesn't seem like it would have looked too neat and integrated (especially when Steam services also allow registrations of physical mediums).

S.T.A.G.E. said: Why use a disc if you dont value it? If you want to play the game now, buy the disc, if you find it reasonable to download the game then do it fully. Theres no need to go to the store. Digital files as it stand now are still secondary to hard disc. Have you ever thought that its a hassle for some people with crappy internet to download these large games? They are only going to get larger next gen. Its not about trying to demonize Microsoft, Microsoft demonizes themselves because they are a faraway company who looks down upon their consumers and only try to entice them when you really need them. When you go to Sonys website at all times Sony is in tune on forums checking out what we have to say. They have a blog to keep us updated on PSN Plus in various regions of the world and tons of outlets. They upload more games onto their Youtube page and have never caused the amount of backlash Microsoft has caused on their Xbox Facebook or Youtube page. You're telling me this is just us? Please, MS is just not in tune with us and they never have been. MS are suits who dug their hand into the gaming cookie jar and wonder why no one thinks they are the cool kid. Want to know why Sony got a standing ovation at E3 and MS never did? Someone said it on Bonus Round, but Sony much like Nintendo and in particular Jack Tretton is seen to be one of the most geniuine speakers in the industry.

You pretty much just answered your own argument. Yes, to a lot of people, downloading an entire game as digital only IS out of the question. Hence, the system allowed the conveniences of DRM with regard to only requiring the physical media to install it, and no longer every time you wish to play it.

Do I want to know why Sony got a standing ovation and not Microsoft? Not really. Do you know why? Because large, unruly mobs generally tend to only have one side of the story, with a very few controlling those emotions either with an agenda or just plain ignorant themselves. I'll hand it to Sony on one thing only: they know how to send large, unruly mobs to their competitors over half-truths. 

And before you start with your whole "you're only trying to make Microsoft look better" crap, keep in mind that I was in the exact same mindset as you until yesterday. What changed? I heard the other side of the argument and motives made a whole lot more sense, unlike this illogical portrayal of Microsoft being these big, shady people who just love to screw people over that other people will have you try to think...

fordy said: S.T.A.G.E. said: Why use a disc if you dont value it? If you want to play the game now, buy the disc, if you find it reasonable to download the game then do it fully. Theres no need to go to the store. Digital files as it stand now are still secondary to hard disc. Have you ever thought that its a hassle for some people with crappy internet to download these large games? They are only going to get larger next gen. Its not about trying to demonize Microsoft, Microsoft demonizes themselves because they are a faraway company who looks down upon their consumers and only try to entice them when you really need them. When you go to Sonys website at all times Sony is in tune on forums checking out what we have to say. They have a blog to keep us updated on PSN Plus in various regions of the world and tons of outlets. They upload more games onto their Youtube page and have never caused the amount of backlash Microsoft has caused on their Xbox Facebook or Youtube page. You're telling me this is just us? Please, MS is just not in tune with us and they never have been. MS are suits who dug their hand into the gaming cookie jar and wonder why no one thinks they are the cool kid. Want to know why Sony got a standing ovation at E3 and MS never did? Someone said it on Bonus Round, but Sony much like Nintendo and in particular Jack Tretton is seen to be one of the most geniuine speakers in the industry. You pretty much just answered your own argument. Yes, to a lot of people, downloading an entire game as digital only IS out of the question. Hence, the system allowed the conveniences of DRM with regard to only requiring the physical media to install it, and no longer every time you wish to play it. Do I want to know why Sony got a standing ovation and not Microsoft? Not really. Do you know why? Because large, unruly mobs generally tend to only have one side of the story, with a very few controlling those emotions either with an agenda or just plain ignorant themselves. I'll hand it to Sony on one thing only: they know how to send large, unruly mobs to their competitors over half-truths.  And before you start with your whole "you're only trying to make Microsoft look better" crap, keep in mind that I was in the exact same mindset as you until yesterday. What changed? I heard the other side of the argument and motives made a whole lot more sense, unlike this illogical portrayal of Microsoft being these big, shady people who just love to screw people over that other people will have you try to think...

DRM was not going to enhance anything, so I dont know what you're going on about. DRM is Digital Rights Management....which only protects Microsoft, EA and other participating third parties. They were throwing you a bone with glorified demos or "sharing" for taking rights away from you in the family plan.

As for the E3 show, yes...it was unruly, biased mobs. No, they were reporters, E3 shows at majorly attended by reporters and fans aren't really allowed. They are allowed to play the games and roam around where they are given access but thats it. These are reporters whom are gamers themselves and can afford their games and tend to own all of the consoles so they can review them and Sony caused them to give a standing ovation just by doing as they asked. Why? Ever heard the marketing say....."The market always wins?" Yes. Thats how it should always be or else your business is a sham from the start.

I read the other side of the argument, I know the motives and their motives were not good enough to risk their public perception just to force the people kicking and screaming into something they'll probably accept six to ten years from now. We all know all digital is coming, we're just not ready for that.

nice that he gave his X1 endorsement

That Francis guy too