Wow... did someone just say Lincoln was a bad president? Hm... Im just going to ignore everything else he has to say because that is just rubbish. He is undoubtedly one of the best presidents, if not the best, of all time. And if you know anything about history, he has accomplished more than most Presidents will ever do, all in only 5 years.

He single handidly changed America into the America we all know, because before and after the Civil war, there were two different Americas. The Civil War could not have been fought without blood, it was a melting pot ever since the first days of the Revolution. The Slavery issue was postponed for hundreds of years, so dont say that everything wouldve worked out in the end.

Anyway, Muyo, your remarks about Bush being a war criminal, what has he done? Has he gassed hundreds of thousands of people? Ordered the killings of thousands more? Tortured (and I mean really torture) people who are against him? No? Oh wait that was some other guy wasnt it.... Oh yea Hussein.

The moment Bush approve guantanamo bay prisons or detentions (what ever you want to call it) he became one step closer to Hussein and that´s why most people think he is a war criminal.

NightDragon83 said: stof said: The fact that there is anyone left on this planet that would still defend Bush and his Republican party scares the ever living crap out of me. Yeah, damn Republican party.... why'd they have to free the slaves... damn Lincoln, should've never signed that stupid emancipation proclamation. Oh well, it's all good.... the Democrats fixed that by ensuring that 90% of future African-Americans will blindly follow and vote for their party while the very people they vote for continue to hold them back or use them as "victims" for their own race-baiting tactics, like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Im lookin more and more forward to President Hitlary every day... for only she (he? it??) can bring an end to all this lying and corruption by the eeeeeeeeevil BushCheneyMcHaliburton Administration.... oh snap, my sarcasm meter just exploded!

You do realize that all the segregationists and those who were pissed about slavery being abolosihed... the so called "Dixiecrats" ended up joining the republican party... and those who are in control of the current republican party are more in line with those guys then they are the Abe's boys... making them much more like those who Lincoln were against... right?

The Democratic party northerners were also against slavery and wanted to end it. Now those Dixiecrats aren't in the democratic party, but in the republican party. Slavery wasn't about a "What is right for black people." It was just a North vs South powerstruggle issue.

As Lincoln said, "If I could free all the slaves and perserve the union I would, if i could free none of the slaves and perserve the union I would."

All he cared about was getting the south back. If I remember right, his ideal plan was putting all the black people on a boat and sending them back to Africa.

Lincoln freeing the slaves was done as a political move to gain support for their troops.

Kidna like the revolutionary war. Where England freed all the slaves in America... to gain them to fight for them.

Yeah, that's right. America winning the Revolutionary war meant white americans were free... but it meant many many more years of slavery for Black America. By my book that made us the "bad guys" and the British really wern't being that unreasonable.

Also everyone knows the Civil War's fault was all Buchannon and Pierce's fault. Both times they were supposed to be Pro North guys but as soon as they got into office they reverted to theyr "doughface" ways and gave prefrence to the south. With Buchanon going so far to say the south could break away, and it would be illegal, however us stopping them would also be illegal. The only way to have stopped the Civil War would of been to let the south break away.

vaio said: The moment Bush approve guantanamo bay prisons or detentions (what ever you want to call it) he became one step closer to Hussein and that´s why most people think he is a war criminal.

Yea because putting less than a thousand suspected terrorists in a US Military Base is about as bad as gassing millions of Kurds. Jeez, someone get the UN and arrest Bush!!!

 

 Now Im not a far right, Im actually really moderate and I disapprove of Bush. But the man isnt nearly as bad as people make him out to be. HIstory will prove this. Scandals and an unpopular war makes him an easy target for just about everything under the sun, but if you really sit down and think about it, i mean without all the propaganda about everything being his fault, you will see heisnt THAT bad. He isnt great, good, hes just mediocre.

Where to begin. Lets Katrina wasn't completely Bush's fault be he was party to blame. The local and State officials botched the situation and the levies should have been fixed long before the disaster. That said the Federal government was just as pathetic as the local and state governments. FEMA and its molasses like pace didn't help things in the least and the National Guard was there like they supposed to because Bush had them in Iraq.

Well actually the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves. It only freed the slaves in the Confederacy. Since the Confederacy considered themselves a separate country they ignored it. The Border states that fought alongside the North were allowed to maintain their slaves.

Bursche said: vaio said: The moment Bush approve guantanamo bay prisons or detentions (what ever you want to call it) he became one step closer to Hussein and that´s why most people think he is a war criminal. Yea because putting less than a thousand suspected terrorists in a US Military Base is about as bad as gassing millions of Kurds. Jeez, someone get the UN and arrest Bush!!!   Now Im not a far right, Im actually really moderate and I disapprove of Bush. But the man isnt nearly as bad as people make him out to be. HIstory will prove this. Scandals and an unpopular war makes him an easy target for just about everything under the sun, but if you really sit down and think about it, i mean without all the propaganda about everything being his fault, you will see heisnt THAT bad. He isnt great, good, hes just mediocre.

Eh, i'd put him in the "Mediocre-bad" column. He was nowhere near the worse... but I think we'd of been better off with a different president. I think when they eventually rate presidents he'll end up historically below the mendoza line.

The Mendoza like being William Henry Harrison of course.

For our non-american friends... the Mendoza line is a baseball term. It's when your batting average is below .198 or so. It's a term named after Mario Mendoza who was one of the best defensive players of all time... who sucked at hitting. Basically if you are a pitcher that hit's lower then he does, your defense is no longer better then your offense.

Basically your doing more bad then good.

Also for our non-american friends. William Henry Harrison died in 31 days into office.

So he did basically nothing. Presidents who fall below William Henry Harrison are basically seen as been bad for the nation, while those above have been seen to do atleast ok for the nation or at least didn't damage the country significantly even if outside situations hurt it that were unstoppable.

Bush wasn't anywhere nearas bad as Pierce, Harding or Buchanon. I'd put him neck and neck with Andrew Jackson.  Andrew Jackson caused much worse problems... but he also had a much harder road out there, and they went about it about the same way... had they been switched presidencies i think Jackson would of handled everything better then Bush would handle reconstruction.

For those saying Lincoln was overrated.... note 3 of the 4 worst presidents ever surrounded him. Lincoln was freaking amazing. He just didn't give a damn about black people.

 

Bursche said: vaio said: The moment Bush approve guantanamo bay prisons or detentions (what ever you want to call it) he became one step closer to Hussein and that´s why most people think he is a war criminal. Yea because putting less than a thousand suspected terrorists in a US Military Base is about as bad as gassing millions of Kurds. Jeez, someone get the UN and arrest Bush!!!    Now Im not a far right, Im actually really moderate and I disapprove of Bush. But the man isnt nearly as bad as people make him out to be. HIstory will prove this. Scandals and an unpopular war makes him an easy target for just about everything under the sun, but if you really sit down and think about it, i mean without all the propaganda about everything being his fault, you will see heisnt THAT bad. He isnt great, good, hes just mediocre.

I never said he was as bad as Hussein, I said that peoples perception goes in that direction not only because he made an illigal jail but for all those innocent people that has been there for years and then just released after being tortured and never really indicted and whe they were found not quilty they weren´t compensated.

 There is a lot of thoose innocent stories going around, for me personally i have been following the story of the swede being threre for years just to be suddenly released because he wasn´t a threat anymore if he ever was and he spent 3+ years being tortured and interogated illegaly and that is why Bush is driven so hard as a warcriminal.

 Then add his own ties to the bin laden family and all the money both families made of the 9/11 the allegations that he or his brother cheated in the first elections so he would win, the lies about massdestructio weapons in Iraq, people being pissed off that he didn´t first finish the job in afghanistan before going to the net country and thus never really helpeng the afghanistan people like they promised, the hero story from Irak when american soldiers saved a woman fellow soldier from enemy hands which was proven bullshit and a direct lie afterwards, the sadistic treatement of the prisoners in Abu G.....(don´t remember how to spell it).

The above is just the most obvious reasons people react and it´s quite a clear picture people get of Bush with a track record like thar then add the economic situation the Us is in and how it affects the rest of us as we were in a economic boom untill Us started to fall and that he turned a good economy with 400+ millions or billions (don´t remember exacly which) to a defecit of higher value which is the biggest contribution to the american economic situation right now because of the price tag that came with continuing the war beyond afghanistan into Iraq.

I am anti bush but always been pro america and very thankfull for all things america has brought to me personaly but all the good things american has done for the world was erased by the Morron (yes ban me for calling someone who clearly is in lack of IQ for a morron) you call President. I always loved the patriotism that Americans have but this time it was not working in your favor and Bush used it to win the second election. 

How does he sleep? Badly I hope...

*austrian accent* he sleeps on a big pile of money, with many beautiful women.

Kasz216 said: Bursche said: vaio said: The moment Bush approve guantanamo bay prisons or detentions (what ever you want to call it) he became one step closer to Hussein and that´s why most people think he is a war criminal. Yea because putting less than a thousand suspected terrorists in a US Military Base is about as bad as gassing millions of Kurds. Jeez, someone get the UN and arrest Bush!!!   Now Im not a far right, Im actually really moderate and I disapprove of Bush. But the man isnt nearly as bad as people make him out to be. HIstory will prove this. Scandals and an unpopular war makes him an easy target for just about everything under the sun, but if you really sit down and think about it, i mean without all the propaganda about everything being his fault, you will see heisnt THAT bad. He isnt great, good, hes just mediocre. Eh, i'd put him in the "Mediocre-bad" column. He was nowhere near the worse... but I think we'd of been better off with a different president. I think when they eventually rate presidents he'll end up historically below the mendoza line. The Mendoza like being William Henry Harrison of course. For our non-american friends... the Mendoza line is a baseball term. It's when your batting average is below .198 or so. It's a term named after Mario Mendoza who was one of the best defensive players of all time... who sucked at hitting. Basically if you are a pitcher that hit's lower then he does, your defense is no longer better then your offense. Basically your doing more bad then good. Also for our non-american friends. William Henry Harrison died in 31 days into office. So he did basically nothing. Presidents who fall below William Henry Harrison are basically seen as been bad for the nation, while those above have been seen to do atleast ok for the nation or at least didn't damage the country significantly even if outside situations hurt it that were unstoppable. Bush wasn't anywhere nearas bad as Pierce, Harding or Buchanon. I'd put him neck and neck with Andrew Jackson. Andrew Jackson caused much worse problems... but he also had a much harder road out there, and they went about it about the same way... had they been switched presidencies i think Jackson would of handled everything better then Bush would handle reconstruction. For those saying Lincoln was overrated.... note 3 of the 4 worst presidents ever surrounded him. Lincoln was freaking amazing. He just didn't give a damn about black people.

 In terms of historical accuracy, I would have to say that this is the best post I have read in this thread.The "Parade of Fools" was the saddest batch of loser Presidents who were in office leading up to the Civil war. Lincoln outshines them by quite a bit, and Johnson got saddled with a terrible situation. Rutherford B. Hayes should also be added to the list of miserable presidents.  Grant was also a better General than President, his military skills are for another thread.  I do however think is unfair to say that Lincoln didn't give a damn about the slaves. He, and Grant, were from the Midwest and married into wealthy families that owned slaves. They shared a bond on this issue because they both felt deeply conflicted over slavery. Lincoln did use political expediency, but it was not a matter he took lightly.  Most things related to the Civil war get overly simplified over time, and Lincoln is such a topic.
 I