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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft: Xbone Is 3x As Powerful Than X360 (Phil Spencer Twitter: It Was A Mistake)

Michael-5 on 20 June 2013
CGI-Quality said:
Michael-5 said:
CGI-Quality said:

I didn't contradict myself at all. "At least 10x" is just that, at the very least. This would include "10-15x", thus, no confliciting argument to anything previous. But of course, you always claim I'm so wrong, yet have never proven it (I'll wait for sources, though, if time permits). You also told me I'd end up "wrong" about GT5. Well..... :P

Bottom line, I don't mind being wrong about the PS3 vs PS4 performance, I just don't believe you're the man who's proven myself (and plenty others) wrong about it. And quite frankily, you get too hung up on "winning" arguments that it's no longer just a simple disagreement anymore. 

I could dig and find you some contradictions, but I won't.

I don't care about "winning" an arguement, but I find it ironic how you can't admit potentially being wrong on something, yet you're always ready to tell other people when they are wrong about something. Maybe I'm not the one who proved anything to you, but I don't understand why those two little words are so hard for you to say.

Dig up the contradictions. If they exist, it shouldn't be very hard.

But on topic - you have been debunked all throughout this thread (as well as the one from a few months ago) and you want me to say that I'm wrong? Wrong how? Show me where you've proven, without a shadow of a doubt, that your findings are the correct ones. 

You think PS4 is more powerful then it is. I recall you said the PS4 was at least 10-15x as powerful as the PS3, implying that it could be more powerful then that. That's just plain wrong, you even change your statement to around 10 and then again to at least 10x as powerful as the PS3. I don't care about the 10x better arguement, 9x, 10x, not a big difference, but greater then 15x?

Anyway CGI, I'm not getting into this with you, there's no point.

Also, I have been dubunked? No one has said I'm wrong, one guy was joking with me, I thought he was arguing it was less then 9x, but you can't tell sarcasm in a post. Pemalite and I are still talking, I want to look at a link he gave me, but I gotta go.



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Michael-5 on 20 June 2013

DP





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Pemalite on 20 June 2013
Michael-5 said:

That's why PS3 never really reached it's maximum, it relies heavily on CPU performance, and most people didn't design games which used it. I think now that the PS4 and One mirror PC specs a lot more, people will be able to push the systems better.

I'll look at those links later, gotta go, but even if the GPU takes on CPU tasks, and even if the GPU is the biggest improvement in the PS4 (except RAM) and the most crutial, it's still only one component. If the CPU is sourced from a laptop, and only a few times better then the one in the PS3, a good GPU can't just make that fact dissappear.


Actually, a good GPU can make that difference dissapear, that's the entire point. - Aka. Offloading CPU processing to the GPU, why you keep arguing that point I'll never know. :P

I did manage to dredge up a benchmark comparing PS3-esque GPU to mobile ones:


So from that data, the GPU is is around 3x as fast as the IGP found in Brazos, AMD's slowest IGP currently and still utilising VLIW5.
Thus, proof is in the pudding, the Radeon 7850-level GPU the PS4 uses is vastly superior to the Geforce 7 in the PS3 in every single way, it's no contest, they don't even compete in the same league.
I'm certainly not going to sell my Radeon 7970's and get triple SLI Geforce 7 cards happening as it's a far cry from your stated "Barely any improvement".

Edit: That benchmark is merely rasterization, not compute, that's an entirely different ballgame and would make the Geforce 7 look anemic.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Hynad on 20 June 2013
Michael-5 said:
tuscaniman99 said:
At this point I don't really care. PS4 may be more powerful but from what I saw out of Ryse and Forza 5 I know that Xbox One can push out great looking graphics. I'm more worried about the quality of the exclusives. Most of the multiplats I'm getting on PC anyways which is > all. The WiiU is looking pretty good lately too.

I see Master Cheif is your avatar, so I don't mean to offend you when I say this, but I'm not interested in the One because of the quality of the exclusives. I don't need a new Halo and Forza every year, I want to see some original ideas, not available for PC. So far, all I've seen is Ryse, which was suppose to be a 360 game, so I feel a bit burnt by that.

Killer instinct is a free download, Crimson Dragon is cool, and I definatly want it, but not new and original, Dead Rising 3 could release on PC, and again, not new, and Quantum Break looks amazing, but like all other Remedy games, I think it will be available on PC.

CGI-Quality said:
Michael-5 said:
Netyaroze said:

PS 4 9 times PS 3 ? I dont think so Tim. 

 

PS3 = 400gflop RSX+ 200gflop Cell= 600gflop so PS4 is just 3 times PS3 strictly speaking. 

PS3's theoretical max is 230.4 GFLOPS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_hardware

I've had a loooong talk with CGI-Quality. PS4 is what 1.84 Terraflops? That's not quite 9x the power, but remember PS3's bottleneck was the RAM, which PS4 has plenty of.

We did, and I'll always disagree with you. ;) But, it will derail the thread. Pointless to go over again.

I was arguing in your favor, Netyaroze thinks PS4 is even less powerful that we both think. I mentioned your name because people listen to you.

Captain_Tom said:
Michael-5 said:
Captain_Tom said:

I adressed the PS4 with a response to someone else, and LOL you Wii U people just won't get your heads out of the sand will you?  The Wii U has NO GAME that looks better than Killzone 2 or even BF3.  At best it will look slightly better but it will b e hardly noticable.  

That's your opinion

No PS3 game runs at 1080p, 60FPS, and looks as good as Pikmin 3 or X

Seriously busted out laughing.  Some people just want to live in their little world...

LOL, yea you! Look at all the other comments, Killzone is not as good looking of a game as you think, Uncharted 3 and maybe even Last of Us (have yet to play it) look a lot better, and they still aren't even 1080p.

You might want to laugh at games like Pikmin 3, but being a gore-fest, doesn't make it a good looking game.

Especially Killzone 2 (LOL), with the game pausing between load sections. Yea, wow, impressive.

Zero999 said:

basicaly wii u won't leave anything to be desired in term of graphics. actually no console will ever do that again due to stagnation.

I just can't understand how some people look at games MK8, M 3D world, X, and still dare to complain about graphics.

Like Captain_Tom said just above "People like to live in their little world..."

It's really amazing how just the jump to 1080p 60FPS makes the game so fluid. I mean even Mario 3D World, I would say that game looks better then anything this gen because of just how natural Mario's movements look. No slowdown, no drop in FPS, native 1080p. Wii U games might not look like PS4/One games, but they are of a similar level.

Wii on the other hand, except for XenoBlade and maybe Skyward Sword, its games stood out as graphically weak compared to PS3/360.


Wait... You're dismissing the XBox One games in that manner... Yet you praise Nintendo's games afterward?

Makes sense, buddy.



HoloDust on 20 June 2013
Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

The new GPU isn't that much faster then the one in PS3. Yes it's more effiecient, but it has to be when the speed barely improves, and the CPU is sourced from a laptop, and something like only 5x as powerful and 1.5x as fast. I know you can't measure brute power by spec alone, but when the majority of components only see 3-5x improvements, and the GPU and RAM alone see greater improvements, it's hard to argue that the PS4 is 9x or more powerful.


I can't beleive I just read that.
A Geforce 7800 class GPU is not that much slower than a Radeon 7850 class GPU?


I know, I was also in "is this guy for real?" state when I've read it.

"Ignorance is bliss" I suppose...



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Michael-5 on 20 June 2013
CGI-Quality said:
Michael-5 said:

You think PS4 is more powerful then it is. I recall you said the PS4 was at least 10-15x as powerful as the PS3, implying that it could be more powerful then that. That's just plain wrong, you even change your statement to around 10 and then again to at least 10x as powerful as the PS3. I don't care about the 10x better arguement, 9x, 10x, not a big difference, but greater then 15x?

Anyway CGI, I'm not getting into this with you, there's no point.

I see. Nothing to show that I'm wrong/contradicted myself. Cool. Cerny, many on VGC, and CGi-Quality all say the PS4 is, at least, 10x the power of its predecessor. You disagree with little else. Simple enough.

Good day, sir.

LOL, you don't like what people say, so you ignore it. There is no point in arguing over a debate/arguement we had a while ago though.

Good day, sir.



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Michael-5 on 20 June 2013
Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

That's why PS3 never really reached it's maximum, it relies heavily on CPU performance, and most people didn't design games which used it. I think now that the PS4 and One mirror PC specs a lot more, people will be able to push the systems better.

I'll look at those links later, gotta go, but even if the GPU takes on CPU tasks, and even if the GPU is the biggest improvement in the PS4 (except RAM) and the most crutial, it's still only one component. If the CPU is sourced from a laptop, and only a few times better then the one in the PS3, a good GPU can't just make that fact dissappear.


Actually, a good GPU can make that difference dissapear, that's the entire point. - Aka. Offloading CPU processing to the GPU, why you keep arguing that point I'll never know. :P

I did manage to dredge up a benchmark comparing PS3-esque GPU to mobile ones:


So from that data, the GPU is is around 3x as fast as the IGP found in Brazos, AMD's slowest IGP currently and still utilising VLIW5.
Thus, proof is in the pudding, the Radeon 7850-level GPU the PS4 uses is vastly superior to the Geforce 7 in the PS3 in every single way, it's no contest, they don't even compete in the same league.
I'm certainly not going to sell my Radeon 7970's and get triple SLI Geforce 7 cards happening as it's a far cry from your stated "Barely any improvement".

Edit: That benchmark is merely rasterization, not compute, that's an entirely different ballgame and would make the Geforce 7 look anemic.

I don't think I said there was "barely any improvement", I said the GFLOPS is 9x as much, but the speed gain isn't as much.

ModelLaunchCodenameFab (nm)Transistors (Million)Die Size (mm2)BusinterfaceMemory (MiB)Clock rateConfig core1FillrateMemoryGFLOPS (Single-precision)TDP3 (W)GFLOPS/W (Single-precision)GFLOPS (Double-precision)Release Price (USD)
Core (MHz)Memory (MHz)Pixel (GP/s)Texture (GT/s)Bandwidth (GB/s)Bus type2Bus width (bit)IdleMax.
Radeon HD 7870
GHz Edition		 Mar 19, 2012 Pitcairn XT 2800 212 PCIe 3.0 ×16 2048 1000 1200 1280:80:32 32 80 153.6 GDDR5 256 2560 10 175 14.629 160 $350
ModelLaunchCode nameFab (nm)Bus interfaceMemory (MiB)Core clock (MHz)Memory clock (MHz)Core config1FillrateMemory
MOperations/sMPixels/sMTextels/sMVertices/sBandwidth (GB/s)Bus typeBus width (bit)
GeForce 7800 GS February 2, 2006 G70 110 AGP 8x 256 375 1200 16:8:16:8 6000 3000 6000 562.5 38.4 GDDR3 256

As you can see, the Core clock rate is only a 3x improvement in the PS4. In comparision to the 9x improvement inGFLOPS, a 3x improvment in Clock Speed isn't much. I don;t understand why 2-3 people quoted me and laughed, do I have my facts wrong?

HoloDust said:
Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

The new GPU isn't that much faster then the one in PS3. Yes it's more effiecient, but it has to be when the speed barely improves, and the CPU is sourced from a laptop, and something like only 5x as powerful and 1.5x as fast. I know you can't measure brute power by spec alone, but when the majority of components only see 3-5x improvements, and the GPU and RAM alone see greater improvements, it's hard to argue that the PS4 is 9x or more powerful.


I can't beleive I just read that.
A Geforce 7800 class GPU is not that much slower than a Radeon 7850 class GPU?


I know, I was also in "is this guy for real?" state when I've read it.

"Ignorance is bliss" I suppose...

Like I showed above, it's only a 3x improvement. Still big, but not crazy compared to the FLOPS increase of 9x.

I think it's the way I say things, people get offended. PS4 is obviously a pretty powerful system, I'm just saying it's not a huge jump, just big. From PS2 -> PS3 it was like a 25x in performance, now from PS3 ->PS4 it's about 9x, and the Clock Speed is only 3x of a jump. 3x < 9x < 25x, lol.



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Michael-5 on 20 June 2013
Hynad said:
Michael-5 said:

I see Master Cheif is your avatar, so I don't mean to offend you when I say this, but I'm not interested in the One because of the quality of the exclusives. I don't need a new Halo and Forza every year, I want to see some original ideas, not available for PC. So far, all I've seen is Ryse, which was suppose to be a 360 game, so I feel a bit burnt by that.

Killer instinct is a free download, Crimson Dragon is cool, and I definatly want it, but not new and original, Dead Rising 3 could release on PC, and again, not new, and Quantum Break looks amazing, but like all other Remedy games, I think it will be available on PC.

Zero999 said:

basicaly wii u won't leave anything to be desired in term of graphics. actually no console will ever do that again due to stagnation.

I just can't understand how some people look at games MK8, M 3D world, X, and still dare to complain about graphics.

Like Captain_Tom said just above "People like to live in their little world..."

It's really amazing how just the jump to 1080p 60FPS makes the game so fluid. I mean even Mario 3D World, I would say that game looks better then anything this gen because of just how natural Mario's movements look. No slowdown, no drop in FPS, native 1080p. Wii U games might not look like PS4/One games, but they are of a similar level.

Wii on the other hand, except for XenoBlade and maybe Skyward Sword, its games stood out as graphically weak compared to PS3/360.


Wait... You're dismissing the XBox One games in that manner... Yet you praise Nintendo's games afterward?

Makes sense, buddy.

It does, how does it not? I own a 360 and a Wii, and I know I'm tired of a new Halo/Forza/Gears biannually. Nintendo only made 2 Zelda's, 2 Metroids, 1 Smash Bros, and 1 Mario Kart on the Wii. Pikmin 3, it's been 9 years since we saw a Pikmin game.

How does this not make sense? Also I never critisized the performance of the One, I think all 8th gen consoles look good



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Hynad on 20 June 2013
Michael-5 said:
Hynad said:
Michael-5 said:

I see Master Cheif is your avatar, so I don't mean to offend you when I say this, but I'm not interested in the One because of the quality of the exclusives. I don't need a new Halo and Forza every year, I want to see some original ideas, not available for PC. So far, all I've seen is Ryse, which was suppose to be a 360 game, so I feel a bit burnt by that.

Killer instinct is a free download, Crimson Dragon is cool, and I definatly want it, but not new and original, Dead Rising 3 could release on PC, and again, not new, and Quantum Break looks amazing, but like all other Remedy games, I think it will be available on PC.

Like Captain_Tom said just above "People like to live in their little world..."

It's really amazing how just the jump to 1080p 60FPS makes the game so fluid. I mean even Mario 3D World, I would say that game looks better then anything this gen because of just how natural Mario's movements look. No slowdown, no drop in FPS, native 1080p. Wii U games might not look like PS4/One games, but they are of a similar level.

Wii on the other hand, except for XenoBlade and maybe Skyward Sword, its games stood out as graphically weak compared to PS3/360.


Wait... You're dismissing the XBox One games in that manner... Yet you praise Nintendo's games afterward?

Makes sense, buddy.

It does, how does it not? I own a 360 and a Wii, and I know I'm tired of a new Halo/Forza/Gears biannually. Nintendo only made 2 Zelda's, 2 Metroids, 1 Smash Bros, and 1 Mario Kart on the Wii. Pikmin 3, it's been 9 years since we saw a Pikmin game.

How does this not make sense? Also I never critisized the performance of the One, I think all 8th gen consoles look good

Is there anything forcing you to buy every single titles in a series? 

As for your comment, you actually said: "not new and original" when talking about Crimson Dragon. How is Super Mario 3D World anything orginal? When you know almost the same game released on the 3DS?  What about Mario Kart 8? Almost the same as 7. What about NSMBU? Barely original. But because you like Nintendo so much, your brain will come up with some reason/excuses to be positive about those. But the situation is exactly the same on all consoles.

New, original titles come out every now and then. In between those, the good old games just get more and more polished after each annual/biannual releases. You can't reinvent the wheel all the time. And there are a lot of people who enjoy the same kind of gameplay, but with a fresh new story, setting, or whatever other coating. To each their own, of course. But don't act like Nintendo is any better when they're obviously playing it very safe right now when it comes to gameplay and game design. 



BinaryDelt on 20 June 2013

"Messed up the line"? This has been your entire life for years. I don't buy that. It's either the underclocking of the GPU or he just picked a number out of thin air. That's not a line he would mess up.