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Forums - PC Discussion - Nvidia come out swinging for the PC at E3: “the PC is the most powerful gaming platform out there”

Kasz216 said:

[...]


Nvidia has APUs(Fancy word for ARMs) and Unified memory architecture... why do people keep thinking they don't?

Nvidia's videogame revenue was extremely disapointing last gen, they just didn't want to chase after the low ass margins the consoles provide, let alone at the even lower margins that AMD were offering because well....

AMD is desperate.   They lost a billion dollar last year.

 

Really AMD's situation mirrors Sony, (Right up to selling their headquarters) except Sony has the advantages of being on the top in their field at one point and having good profitable buisnsesses.

Well, and Sony actually moved their headquareters after they sold the building, they weren't desperate enough to sell their offices then just lease those exact same offices from the company who bought them.  That's just... really bad.

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/the-rise-and-fall-of-amd-how-an-underdog-stuck-it-to-intel/

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/amd-on-ropes-from-the-top-of-the-mountain-to-the-deepest-valleys/3/  (to skip to the console part)

This is something people who are coming in from consoles might not know but... really this is a last chance gamble for AMD.

 

I think they're REALLY hoping somehow the Xbox One becomes huge as a TV Box.

This AMD gamble should be a quite safe one, luckily: even if 8th gen will sell the same as 7th, or even a little less, AMD share on it will be far bigger, and actually MS and Sony are giving it a huge help to launch what will be the top of AMD low power consumption APUs range.
In the worst possible scenario console market will give AMD little help, but it shouldn't damage it.
About leasing the offices they just sold... MEH, this shows AMD's worst problem, its management SUXXXXX!!! Hard. If they cannot afford them anymore, don't lease them, move to a cheaper area and instead of paying a rent, get a loan to buy cheaper offices and use that same money of the rent to at least end up owning what you're paying for.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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trixiemafia86 said:
Zkuq said:
trixiemafia86 said:

actually, it all depends on the price of the PC. My PC for instance is more expensive regardless of how cheap I buy games on steam and whatnot. 

Correct. That's why I said it's not necessarily true. Obviously a top-tier PC isn't the only thing you can compare to consoles, though. And if you buy a top-tier PC, you're either an entusiast to whom it's worth the cost or you're ignorant in some way. Or you could pay some extra for a crappy PC, who knows. In that case, too, you're ignorant. I'm guessing you fall in the enthusiast group, though.

Agreed. But One question: for a first time adopter, what PC price range will provide similar performance to nextgen consoles for atleast 2-3 years? I'll like to know what you think thats all.

I've been out of the loop for years now with my lack of money for upgrades but if I had to guess, I'd say a brand new PC that would keep up with the new consoles wouldn't be more than $800. Probably a lot less if you really know what you're looking for.



Zkuq said:
trixiemafia86 said:

Agreed. But One question: for a first time adopter, what PC price range will provide similar performance to nextgen consoles for atleast 2-3 years? I'll like to know what you think thats all.

I've been out of the loop for years now with my lack of money for upgrades but if I had to guess, I'd say a brand new PC that would keep up with the new consoles wouldn't be more than $800. Probably a lot less if you really know what you're looking for.

Fair enough. 



Smartest nam evila

Current Platforms: HighendPC[rip]/PS4/PS3[rip]/Vita[rip]

Kasz216 said:
iron_megalith said:
Kasz216 said:
HoloDust said:
Kasz216 said:
iron_megalith said:


A pc rig won't keep up for 10 years as well so goodluck with that. Also there's a difference with paying a huge ammount of money in one go than paying in terms. The latter is more manageable as you don't splurge your money right away.

So no... PC is still more expensive to build not to mention researching individual good parts which is quite a hassle for general consumers.

But really nothing really beats PC in performance. You just need to be stinking rich to keep up with it.


You're joking right?  A PC will totally keep up with a console for 10 years.

If anything the opposite is true.  In 10 years it's the PS4//Xbone that won't be keeping up, while the PC will be able to run games that won't even be on the PS4.


Heck, the PC rig will probably keep up with the PS5/nextbox if you just buy a graphics card that will be cheaper then the PS5/nextbox likely will be.

Uhm, think he meant without upgrading. But even if you want to upgrade, beside the point that you can't wait 10 years (10 years ago, for example, GPUs were still running on AGP), there are a lot of people (majority, I'd say) that simply don't want to bother with that.

While PC gaming certainly has lot of benefits, having closed box that's paid for once and wll serve you for next 8 or more years (like in this cycle) also has its own benefits. Unless it breaks down, that is...but that happens to PCs as well.


You won't need to upgrade though.  The advantage of a closed box is an illusion.

The PS4 will play every P4 for like 8 years ok.  

An 8 year old PC will play all of those games too.  It will play newer PC Games too... at lower settings which will still be greater then what the PS4 wil do.

The old PC not only keeps up with the PS4, but stays ahead of it completely unupgraded.  The PS4 doesn't suddenly download more ram and get really powerful.

You could just get the same "advantage" by buying a PC, and just buying a new one in 8-9 years.

 

The only real reason to buy a console is exclusives.


I dunno about you guys but my philosophy of PC gaming is either you play it on max or you stop whinning how console versions look like shit. Dumbing it down so much won't really make a difference between the two unless you're super picky about "visual fidelity". Sure you get a couple of better textures and 10% more frames but does that really matter that much?

So no... 3-4 years is a good time for a rig. By that time I'll probably be switching my GPU, which will not be cheap.

Also for the record I'm using a first gen i7. Had gone to 2 GPUs now. 470 to 670.


So your argument is "It runs better then the best console, but because it's not max, it clearly doesn't matter and is in fact inferior."

That doesn't make sense to me.  Again your arguement is "It's better then the console but it could be even better, so then I HAVE to upgrade it."

Doesn't really make sense.

Stop twisting things. I admit that PC really is better than console in terms of performance no doubt. However the cost and effort to build one is greater than simply just getting out there and buying a console. Not to mention the gains you would get in the long run granted you stick with your initial set-up are not really that great. The so called "lesser" console counterpart would not really be a game breaking experience.

Then you could go on and say it's overclockable. Etc etc. Overclocking will scare the shit out of the general consumer. Overclocking is for the enthusiasts. If you go on and fiddle with it with your bad luck/inexperience and break it, you're screwed.

The point is. It's expensive and inconvenient(or less convenient) and the difference isn't really THAT mind blowing.

I could list many more things that are convenient with console if gaming is the only thing in mind.  I do a lot of travels and I love bringing my PS3/360 whenever it's possible. You can't simply do that with a decent mid tower rig which weighs a whole lot. Unless you're willing to dismantle every damn parts and leave the casing behind.



Kasz216 said:


You won't need to upgrade though.  The advantage of a closed box is an illusion.

The PS4 will play every P4 for like 8 years ok.  

An 8 year old PC will play all of those games too.  It will play newer PC Games too... at lower settings which will still be greater then what the PS4 wil do.

The old PC not only keeps up with the PS4, but stays ahead of it completely unupgraded.  The PS4 doesn't suddenly download more ram and get really powerful.

You could just get the same "advantage" by buying a PC, and just buying a new one in 8-9 years.

The only real reason to buy a console is exclusives.

I really doubt 2005 PC that was not upgraded will play much of modern games (if at all) at nothing but low settings...maybe if, and that's a big if, you shelled out $600+ for 7800GTX. At $400 for 360 at a time, I don't see how PC was better deal, for most of people anyway.

Similarly, it will be really interesting to see what 7850-7870 based PC (which would cost you some $700-$750 now, and hopefully perform at PS4 level) will be able to play in 8 years, without upgrading anything.

I've always have, and most likely will, prefer computer gaming (having more genres being key factor there) - however I can understand why lot of people choose console only approach, exclusives not being only reason for that.



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HoloDust said:

I really doubt 2005 PC that was not upgraded will play much of modern games (if at all) at nothing but low settings...maybe if, and that's a big if, you shelled out $600+ for 7800GTX. At $400 for 360 at a time, I don't see how PC was better deal, for most of people anyway.

Similarly, it will be really interesting to see what 7850-7870 based PC (which would cost you some $700-$750 now, and hopefully perform at PS4 level) will be able to play in 8 years, without upgrading anything.

I've always have, and most likely will, prefer computer gaming (having more genres being key factor there) - however I can understand why lot of people choose console only approach, exclusives not being only reason for that.


At bolded. I look forward to that too. Just out of curiousity, to see how they compare  to PS4 in the future without upgrading anything. Some believe it will keep up throughout nextgen and are quite happy that they won't have to upgrade.



Smartest nam evila

Current Platforms: HighendPC[rip]/PS4/PS3[rip]/Vita[rip]

iron_megalith said:
Kasz216 said:
iron_megalith said:
Kasz216 said:
HoloDust said:
Kasz216 said:
iron_megalith said:


A pc rig won't keep up for 10 years as well so goodluck with that. Also there's a difference with paying a huge ammount of money in one go than paying in terms. The latter is more manageable as you don't splurge your money right away.

So no... PC is still more expensive to build not to mention researching individual good parts which is quite a hassle for general consumers.

But really nothing really beats PC in performance. You just need to be stinking rich to keep up with it.


You're joking right?  A PC will totally keep up with a console for 10 years.

If anything the opposite is true.  In 10 years it's the PS4//Xbone that won't be keeping up, while the PC will be able to run games that won't even be on the PS4.


Heck, the PC rig will probably keep up with the PS5/nextbox if you just buy a graphics card that will be cheaper then the PS5/nextbox likely will be.

Uhm, think he meant without upgrading. But even if you want to upgrade, beside the point that you can't wait 10 years (10 years ago, for example, GPUs were still running on AGP), there are a lot of people (majority, I'd say) that simply don't want to bother with that.

While PC gaming certainly has lot of benefits, having closed box that's paid for once and wll serve you for next 8 or more years (like in this cycle) also has its own benefits. Unless it breaks down, that is...but that happens to PCs as well.


You won't need to upgrade though.  The advantage of a closed box is an illusion.

The PS4 will play every P4 for like 8 years ok.  

An 8 year old PC will play all of those games too.  It will play newer PC Games too... at lower settings which will still be greater then what the PS4 wil do.

The old PC not only keeps up with the PS4, but stays ahead of it completely unupgraded.  The PS4 doesn't suddenly download more ram and get really powerful.

You could just get the same "advantage" by buying a PC, and just buying a new one in 8-9 years.

 

The only real reason to buy a console is exclusives.


I dunno about you guys but my philosophy of PC gaming is either you play it on max or you stop whinning how console versions look like shit. Dumbing it down so much won't really make a difference between the two unless you're super picky about "visual fidelity". Sure you get a couple of better textures and 10% more frames but does that really matter that much?

So no... 3-4 years is a good time for a rig. By that time I'll probably be switching my GPU, which will not be cheap.

Also for the record I'm using a first gen i7. Had gone to 2 GPUs now. 470 to 670.


So your argument is "It runs better then the best console, but because it's not max, it clearly doesn't matter and is in fact inferior."

That doesn't make sense to me.  Again your arguement is "It's better then the console but it could be even better, so then I HAVE to upgrade it."

Doesn't really make sense.

Stop twisting things. I admit that PC really is better than console in terms of performance no doubt. However the cost and effort to build one is greater than simply just getting out there and buying a console. Not to mention the gains you would get in the long run granted you stick with your initial set-up are not really that great. The so called "lesser" console counterpart would not really be a game breaking experience.

Then you could go on and say it's overclockable. Etc etc. Overclocking will scare the shit out of the general consumer. Overclocking is for the enthusiasts. If you go on and fiddle with it with your bad luck/inexperience and break it, you're screwed.

The point is. It's expensive and inconvenient(or less convenient) and the difference isn't really THAT mind blowing.

I could list many more things that are convenient with console if gaming is the only thing in mind.  I do a lot of travels and I love bringing my PS3/360 whenever it's possible. You can't simply do that with a decent mid tower rig which weighs a whole lot. Unless you're willing to dismantle every damn parts and leave the casing behind.


Again, it's really only one or the other.  It's either more costly, more effort, or the graphical advantages are smaller... but still exist.

You can argue they aren't significant in the third case, but again the advantages still do exist.

In the end, Nivdia is right.



Kasz216 said:
mjk45 said:

Seems the reason that Nvidia is going all out is they don't like the fact that amd is getting publicity by being manufacturer of choice in the consoles and so they go from the president saying we love working with Sony and it's been great and benificial for both parties and we see a long term partership ,to we don't want your stinking consoles .


You can bet if they had their tech in either PS4 or XBone the tune would be very different , and a we can't meet your requirements becomes spun into we didn't want to do it , where the reality seems to be Nvidia really didn't have a design that ticked off all the directional needs of the next gen consoles to match amd's apu road map and unified memory design ,and because no one likes to look as if they couldn't compete at a certain point , even if that just comes about by not having like your opponent a x86 licence to make things easier and thus having a different focus.
So really it's Nvidia trying to tell the world it was them declining rather than any thing done better by amd that got them into the consoles.


Nvidia has APUs(Fancy word for ARMs) and Unified memory architecture... why do people keep thinking they don't?

Nvidia's videogame revenue was extremely disapointing last gen, they just didn't want to chase after the low ass margins the consoles provide, let alone at the even lower margins that AMD were offering because well....

AMD is desperate.   They lost a billion dollar last year.

 

Really AMD's situation mirrors Sony, (Right up to selling their headquarters) except Sony has the advantages of being on the top in their field at one point and having good profitable buisnsesses.

Well, and Sony actually moved their headquareters after they sold the building, they weren't desperate enough to sell their offices then just lease those exact same offices from the company who bought them.  That's just... really bad.

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/the-rise-and-fall-of-amd-how-an-underdog-stuck-it-to-intel/

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/amd-on-ropes-from-the-top-of-the-mountain-to-the-deepest-valleys/3/  (to skip to the console part)

This is something people who are coming in from consoles might not know but... really this is a last chance gamble for AMD.

 

I think they're REALLY hoping somehow the Xbox One becomes huge as a TV Box.

At the time they didn't have anything similar to  amd's apu / hsa design far enough developed to match amd's offering only  tegra , recently they said maxwell will be their  first gpu to use system ram , so yes they didn't have anything to match and are playing catch up it happens ,  both sides have been ahead in certain areas over the years ,also I agree  amd needed it more than Nvidia  ,still if Nvidia had something to compete they could have cut their rival off at the knees denying them  much neeeded income , about selling property and leasing it back it happens all the time .



Research shows Video games  help make you smarter, so why am I an idiot

Quartz said:
You all seem to be forgetting that PC's may have greater graphical power and all that, but the games have a overhead on them to work with different types of cards in different types of PC's. So while the PS4 may never be as powerful as the PC - IT CAN BE optimized better simply due to the fact that the hardware is fixed...


The overhead isn't worth teraflops.

A PC with a similar GPU to the Xbox 360 and PS3 like the Radeon x1950 can play standard-no-effort-put-into-it console ports fine at 720P with 30fps, the same level as the current generation consoles.

Case in point Crysis, which will run fine on any Dual-Core with a Radeon x1950 better than the Xbox 360 or PS3, with better foliage, textures, lighting and more objects on screen.
But don't take my word for it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHWPGmf_A_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s46UC_gVH_0

Call of Duty will even run on a similar system with 60fps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpWRJRCNO_A

However, if you take a badly ported game like GTA IV, then even the fastest of PC's will crumble, but that's not the fault of the PC, the PS3 suffered from some bad ports to, like Skyrim. (Again a PC with a Radeon x1950 can play.)
If you grab a game like Battlefield 3, you can't even compare them as even the minimum graphics on the PC is superior to that of the consoles, due to the fact it doesn't support the Direct X 9 feature set at all.

The "Optimisations" consoles get do help, however it's not going to translate into double, triple or quad-druple the performance of an equivalently specced PC though.

iron_megalith said:

Then you could go on and say it's overclockable. Etc etc. Overclocking will scare the shit out of the general consumer. Overclocking is for the enthusiasts. If you go on and fiddle with it with your bad luck/inexperience and break it, you're screwed.


Overclocking these days is tame, long gone are the adjusting of the voltage, FSB etc' via Jumpers on the motherboard, these days it's all about just setting a multiplier and leaving it at that in the BIOS or even in Windows. (Unless it's AMD, they are more enjoyable CPU's to overclock!)
With that said, the risks of overclocking are blown out of proportion, you aren't going to accellerate the effects of electromigration with a mere increase of a Multiplier and it's gotten to the point where it's become more accessible to younger gamers with some Laptops even coming with an "Overclock" button set by the manufacturer. (Some Asus EeePC's had it too!)

However, you are right, the average person wouldn't care or be interested in such things, but the risks of "blowing" up a system these days via Overclocking are pretty much minimal these days.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Kasz216 said:
iron_megalith said:

Stop twisting things. I admit that PC really is better than console in terms of performance no doubt. However the cost and effort to build one is greater than simply just getting out there and buying a console. Not to mention the gains you would get in the long run granted you stick with your initial set-up are not really that great. The so called "lesser" console counterpart would not really be a game breaking experience.

Then you could go on and say it's overclockable. Etc etc. Overclocking will scare the shit out of the general consumer. Overclocking is for the enthusiasts. If you go on and fiddle with it with your bad luck/inexperience and break it, you're screwed.

The point is. It's expensive and inconvenient(or less convenient) and the difference isn't really THAT mind blowing.

I could list many more things that are convenient with console if gaming is the only thing in mind.  I do a lot of travels and I love bringing my PS3/360 whenever it's possible. You can't simply do that with a decent mid tower rig which weighs a whole lot. Unless you're willing to dismantle every damn parts and leave the casing behind.


Again, it's really only one or the other.  It's either more costly, more effort, or the graphical advantages are smaller... but still exist.

You can argue they aren't significant in the third case, but again the advantages still do exist.

In the end, Nivdia is right.

Come on mod, fix your quote trees :P.

 

OT: Yeah to those people that said they conveniently left out Nintendo. I am sure Nintendo would have been a big piece of the pie, assuming the PS portion includes PSP as well. Then Nintendo's portion would possibly be bigger then Xbox as it would include DS, 3DS, Wii.