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Forums - Gaming - The concept of "used games" doesn't exist : it is consumer manipulation BS

 

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DevilRising said:
I'm sorry, but the way that OP was written almost broke me. It was hard to follow, and I'm not exactly sure what your overall point was, up until the slightly-related conclusion at the end.

Used games DO exist. Have for decades. It's when someone who bought and owned something brand new, sells that game or system or controller now to someone else to own. Whether it's at a pawn shop, or a yard sale, or a flea market, or just from friend to friend. So I'm not sure about the title of the thread, even.

And also, since when is there a law against modifying PCs? People do it all the time. And what about people who build their own modified models from the ground up? Not quite sure what that meant either.


I agree that game companies should not be allowed to have any say in someone selling or buying pre-owned games. I can see, in the case of some SMALLER developers/publishers, how they might lose money/sales figures on people buying used copies instead of new. But for most of the big fish, their games tend to sell well enough that used games sales are a drop in the bucket. So I agree with that notion completely. I just think the OP could/should have had a more structured and coherent point.

I'm not fluent in English, but you've misunderstood : what we call "used games" shouldn't be any different than a "user blu-ray" or "used ipod" or "used jacket" in that it is something you bought, you own and so you can do whatever the hell you want with it like you would with any other "used" product.

So what greedy publishers are trying to do by controlling, preventing or taxing the lending, giving or selling of what you own is a first and should be completely illegal.

Obviously most people agree but what kills me is those media trying to make us agree by bending arguments, and the few people who end up agreeing.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
thekitchensink said:
zarx said:

You don't own any game, if you "buy" it you own the physical media and a license to use it. The game it's self is covered by copyright law, which is a complex quagmire and your rights vary wildly depending on where you live.


Sure, you own a license to play that game.  Keyword being that you OWN that license, and it is your right to do with it as you please provided you don't make illegal copies.  It is your license, and you can sell it, lend it, give it away, whatever you want, and it's none of EA or Activision's business.


License does NOT mean you own a game. It means you're allowed to use said product...you and you alone. It is an agreement between you and the product manufacturer. 

You own a DVD but it gives you a free digital version licensed to your PC. Its an allowance, not ownership, nothing you buy digital is owned.

If you have a drivers license in the US you are conditionally allowed to drive your car. You must pay your insurance and update your license to make sure you're ahering to state rules in the US. 

Ownership....implies that you have no conditions over what you just bought. You gave your money you have your product and you hold it in your hand, with the power of resale or even to lend it to a friend.

Americans are protected by the first-sale doctrine, which is why stores like Gamestop are untouchable unless games go full digital. Its called the exhaustion rule, when a product has existed past its time in your ownership and you as the legal owner decide to sell it off or even give it away.  

I understand what you're saying, in that publishers try to control the game aftermarket with an EULA, but as you said, the first sale doctrine basically makes EULAs completely null and void for physical copies of games.  Therefore, by circumventing it with these anti-consumer DRM schemes, the companies are arbitrarily deciding that the law doesn't apply to them.  They'll get away with it somehow, like they have been with PC games, but not before getting hit with a great deal or legal conflict.

For the record, in case some big publisher is magically reading this, these same practices are why I can count the number of PC games I've purchased in the last decade on one hand.



Could I trouble you for some maple syrup to go with the plate of roffles you just served up?

Tag, courtesy of fkusumot: "Why do most of the PS3 fanboys have avatars that looks totally pissed?"
"Ok, girl's trapped in the elevator, and the power's off.  I swear, if a zombie comes around the next corner..."
thekitchensink said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
thekitchensink said:
zarx said:

You don't own any game, if you "buy" it you own the physical media and a license to use it. The game it's self is covered by copyright law, which is a complex quagmire and your rights vary wildly depending on where you live.


Sure, you own a license to play that game.  Keyword being that you OWN that license, and it is your right to do with it as you please provided you don't make illegal copies.  It is your license, and you can sell it, lend it, give it away, whatever you want, and it's none of EA or Activision's business.


License does NOT mean you own a game. It means you're allowed to use said product...you and you alone. It is an agreement between you and the product manufacturer. 

You own a DVD but it gives you a free digital version licensed to your PC. Its an allowance, not ownership, nothing you buy digital is owned.

If you have a drivers license in the US you are conditionally allowed to drive your car. You must pay your insurance and update your license to make sure you're ahering to state rules in the US. 

Ownership....implies that you have no conditions over what you just bought. You gave your money you have your product and you hold it in your hand, with the power of resale or even to lend it to a friend.

Americans are protected by the first-sale doctrine, which is why stores like Gamestop are untouchable unless games go full digital. Its called the exhaustion rule, when a product has existed past its time in your ownership and you as the legal owner decide to sell it off or even give it away.  

I understand what you're saying, in that publishers try to control the game aftermarket with an EULA, but as you said, the first sale doctrine basically makes EULAs completely null and void for physical copies of games.  Therefore, by circumventing it with these anti-consumer DRM schemes, the companies are arbitrarily deciding that the law doesn't apply to them.  They'll get away with it somehow, like they have been with PC games, but not before getting hit with a great deal or legal conflict.

For the record, in case some big publisher is magically reading this, these same practices are why I can count the number of PC games I've purchased in the last decade on one hand.


Exactly. Since they cant legally use the EULA on us until the games are fully digital what they've put on the books are only warnings which basically mirror what is current in PC gaming. They have decided to monitor their product which they are selling to you. If a company does that...thats the way they feel. 



You title confused me a bit there....

Just like the dude in the video, I'm tired of repeating myself as to why used games are not the problem (people just don't fucking listen). But it's all corporate greed. These publishers/dev think too much about short term and not enough long term when marketing their games. They think can make big money if they invest all/most/a lot of their budget on one game.

Most of these companies think they're Hollywood. They invest 60+ million dollars on a game with pretty graphics, hardly any content, and not enough game play and depth. It's a few hundred thousand to a million or two shy from their expectations. What do they do? either complain that things like used games weren't helping their sales, or they start providing DLC for a premium price to make up for their losses.

That's what they're doing. They develop/release a game with very little replay value that gamers don't feel it's worthwhile to keep. They age so much faster that they're not that fun to play anymore.

If this keeps going then we might see another crash. Release a crappy game, it doesn't make money, closed for good. So yeah the concept of used games will cease to exist someday.



blublibla said:
DevilRising said:
I'm sorry, but the way that OP was written almost broke me. It was hard to follow, and I'm not exactly sure what your overall point was, up until the slightly-related conclusion at the end.

Used games DO exist. Have for decades. It's when someone who bought and owned something brand new, sells that game or system or controller now to someone else to own. Whether it's at a pawn shop, or a yard sale, or a flea market, or just from friend to friend. So I'm not sure about the title of the thread, even.

And also, since when is there a law against modifying PCs? People do it all the time. And what about people who build their own modified models from the ground up? Not quite sure what that meant either.


I agree that game companies should not be allowed to have any say in someone selling or buying pre-owned games. I can see, in the case of some SMALLER developers/publishers, how they might lose money/sales figures on people buying used copies instead of new. But for most of the big fish, their games tend to sell well enough that used games sales are a drop in the bucket. So I agree with that notion completely. I just think the OP could/should have had a more structured and coherent point.

I'm not fluent in English, but you've misunderstood : what we call "used games" shouldn't be any different than a "user blu-ray" or "used ipod" or "used jacket" in that it is something you bought, you own and so you can do whatever the hell you want with it like you would with any other "used" product.

So what greedy publishers are trying to do by controlling, preventing or taxing the lending, giving or selling of what you own is a first and should be completely illegal.

Obviously most people agree but what kills me is those media trying to make us agree by bending arguments, and the few people who end up agreeing.

 

Okay. I wasn't trying to offend, and I kind of guessed that English might not be your first language. I do basically agree with what you're saying, about corporations trying to control shit. Thankfully, Nintendo and Sony seem to not be falling in step behind Microsoft, which is good.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
thekitchensink said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
thekitchensink said:
zarx said:

You don't own any game, if you "buy" it you own the physical media and a license to use it. The game it's self is covered by copyright law, which is a complex quagmire and your rights vary wildly depending on where you live.


Sure, you own a license to play that game.  Keyword being that you OWN that license, and it is your right to do with it as you please provided you don't make illegal copies.  It is your license, and you can sell it, lend it, give it away, whatever you want, and it's none of EA or Activision's business.


License does NOT mean you own a game. It means you're allowed to use said product...you and you alone. It is an agreement between you and the product manufacturer. 

You own a DVD but it gives you a free digital version licensed to your PC. Its an allowance, not ownership, nothing you buy digital is owned.

If you have a drivers license in the US you are conditionally allowed to drive your car. You must pay your insurance and update your license to make sure you're ahering to state rules in the US. 

Ownership....implies that you have no conditions over what you just bought. You gave your money you have your product and you hold it in your hand, with the power of resale or even to lend it to a friend.

Americans are protected by the first-sale doctrine, which is why stores like Gamestop are untouchable unless games go full digital. Its called the exhaustion rule, when a product has existed past its time in your ownership and you as the legal owner decide to sell it off or even give it away.  

I understand what you're saying, in that publishers try to control the game aftermarket with an EULA, but as you said, the first sale doctrine basically makes EULAs completely null and void for physical copies of games.  Therefore, by circumventing it with these anti-consumer DRM schemes, the companies are arbitrarily deciding that the law doesn't apply to them.  They'll get away with it somehow, like they have been with PC games, but not before getting hit with a great deal or legal conflict.

For the record, in case some big publisher is magically reading this, these same practices are why I can count the number of PC games I've purchased in the last decade on one hand.


Exactly. Since they cant legally use the EULA on us until the games are fully digital what they've put on the books are only warnings which basically mirror what is current in PC gaming. They have decided to monitor their product which they are selling to you. If a company does that...thats the way they feel. 

To join on in on this "licencing" and EULA argument (and again I won't target anyone, but I can't fucking bear people trying to defend these recent and corrupt laws)

What licensing defines, is absolutely not the ownership and every right that are tied to it like lending or selling, but merely defines the conditions of used.

And these conditions are not written in the constitution or law : it's a contract between you and the company you bought de product from BUT it DOES NOT cancels or circumvents consumers laws and such. That's why licences are contracts defined by companies that might even be illegal



Im getting an Xbox One. Makes laugh that it pisses of so many people.



blublibla said:

WAIT.

The concept of "used games" doesn't actually exist.

If you wanted to sell a jacket you're not wearing or a desk you're not using anymore, would it ever occured to you to have to ask permission or pay anything to the manufacturer or brand ? (The same goes in fact if you just want to lend or give what you own)

OF COURSE NOT. That's because in every constitution since the beginning of civilization there is a very important notion that is the right of property. As of now what it still says in US or Europe constitutions is that what you buy, you own. And what you own, you can do whatever you want with.

We've been manipulated by medias for so long into accepting some consecutive corruption of the law like the one saying you can't modify your iphone or computer or whatever, BUT it still doesn't change the core of the law and that's why nobody's been ever sued for jailbreaking an iphone or modifying a console (unless you are hacking into private databases, or stealing IP).

SO NO, you should never be prevented from using, lending, giving or selling what you OWN. That's why big publishers shouldn't been seen as anything but the usual corrupt greedy fat corporation who, like the music majors, are trying to corrupt the law even it means attacking people's rights or liberties by doing so, and the only way they'll be able to is if we give them approval vocally or with the wallet (which makes you collaborator).

And finally, the only thing a publisher/manufacturer should be able to do, would be to charge you a small service fee to transfert/sell a game online, like kickstarter or amazon would. In fact I think that they've been trying to attack used games to try to get back the margin cut that Gamestop gets when it buys back and sells games, which is false logic because the cost of operations, hiring and the fact that it is physically based makes it totally normal to get that margin.

Your entire premis is just plain wrong.  When you purchase mass effect you are not buying the intellectual property and ownership of mass effect you are purchasing the rights to play mass effect.  Just like when you buy a song or a cd or a book or a movie you do not have the right to market mass effect. If you sell mass effect you sell your rights to the use the game.

the only lie being told is the one you are suggesting.

 

 

 

 



Multimedialover said:
Im getting an Xbox One. Makes laugh that it pisses of so many people.


It doesn't matter. Enjoy your Xbox One. Other gamers care about their rights to ownership and for Microsoft to put paywalls and account locks on peoples accounts is screwed up. If you don't think its wrong, thats perfectly fine, enjoy paying full price for all of your games in a weird economy and having zero ownership over your games.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Multimedialover said:
Im getting an Xbox One. Makes laugh that it pisses of so many people.


It doesn't matter. Enjoy your Xbox One. Other gamers care about their rights to ownership and for Microsoft to put paywalls and account locks on peoples accounts is screwed up. If you don't think its wrong, thats perfectly fine, enjoy paying full price for all of your games in a weird economy and having zero ownership over your games.

Stage you continue this notion that you own "your game", you do not.  You own the right to use the game under the terms of sale.  It is not a jacket, a table, or a car...it is intellectual property that while you do have the right to sell your rights to a used game store, when you sell you sell your right and the used game store inherits that right until they sell.  

 

Microsoft Is not saying you can't sell your right to use the game, all they are saying is that new purchaser of that right must also pay royalty to the publisher,  this is the correct understanding of the law and just like peer to peer jerks back in the music theft days gamers need to respect the law.