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Forums - Nintendo - "Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of current gen" Shin'en

oni-link on 30 May 2013

Wii U is similar to the 360 like the 360 is similar to the Wii albeit having 3 cores instead of one!!!

360: 3-core PPC CPU, AMD GPU
Wii: single core PPC, AMD GPU

J/K lol...now can we move on the 360 and Wii U similarity?



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ViktorBKK on 30 May 2013
oni-link said:
ViktorBKK said:
curl-6 said:
ViktorBKK said:
The Wii U architecture is very similar to the Xbox 360.

It's not all that similar. There's more emphasis on memory subsystem management on Wii U, with large CPU caches (3MB versus 1 MB in 360) and a large EDRAM on the GPU (32MB versus 10MB on 360) intended to balance out a lower clockspeeds and main RAM bandwidth.  The GPU and CPU are quite different in architecture too; even ignoring the cache differences, the Wii U CPU is out-of-order-execution compared to 360's in-order-execution CPU, while the Wii U GPU is so weird that even after getting detailed pics the tech-heads still can't work it out.

The architecture is very similar actually. Both systems have 3 general purpose PowerPC cores in terms of CPU power. Out-of-order simply means that the CPU can execute commands in a different order than what is written in the code. From the developer's standpoint, no significant changes need to be made to the code, and it makes things faster if anything. More cache and more EDRAM, also dont make things "different", they actually make things easier. If i add another 8 GBs of RAM on my PC, it doesn't "change" the architecture. Regarding the GPU being "weird", I am not sure what you mean. It's an AMD Radeon part, so it can't be all that exotic. And considering its DX11 compatible, it should be a lot easier to program for than the DX9 GPU of the 360.

Of course, nobody claims that you should be able to port the 360 code and things would run faster without any work. But with all things considered, within 12 months from launch, this system should be 100% figured out by developers.


You just lost all credibility there in my eyes!!! The 360 is limited to DX8.1 at most, trying to artificially boost the system's capability to make the Wii U look bad is a very shameful thing. Naughty boy.

The 360 GPU is DirectX 9.0c and Shader Model 3.0+

And I don't even like Microsoft. They are very anti-consumer lately.



farlaff on 30 May 2013
Sharu said:

ViktorBKK, yes, WiiU is empty inside and its runned by weird Nintedo magic...

Lol





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Anari on 30 May 2013
ViktorBKK said:
Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc.

Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture. There is no "exotic" architecture involved, like PS3's mixed-core solution. Now obviously, some people want to believe that there is immense untapped power in this system. The cold hard truth is that Nintendo's system is based on 40-45nm silicon and runs at 75 Watts during full blown game-play. 80 dollar video cards from the same process node run at 100-130 watts. If you understand the principles of semi-conductor size and power consumption, then you know what I'm talking about. There is barely any hardware inside that console.


How does saying WiiU's architecture is different from 360's mean that someone thinks there is immense untapped power? 

You don't even know what you're arguing about, do you? And your last sentence is just pure silliness. Waste of time.



oni-link on 30 May 2013
ViktorBKK said:
oni-link said:
ViktorBKK said:
curl-6 said:
ViktorBKK said:
The Wii U architecture is very similar to the Xbox 360.

It's not all that similar. There's more emphasis on memory subsystem management on Wii U, with large CPU caches (3MB versus 1 MB in 360) and a large EDRAM on the GPU (32MB versus 10MB on 360) intended to balance out a lower clockspeeds and main RAM bandwidth.  The GPU and CPU are quite different in architecture too; even ignoring the cache differences, the Wii U CPU is out-of-order-execution compared to 360's in-order-execution CPU, while the Wii U GPU is so weird that even after getting detailed pics the tech-heads still can't work it out.

The architecture is very similar actually. Both systems have 3 general purpose PowerPC cores in terms of CPU power. Out-of-order simply means that the CPU can execute commands in a different order than what is written in the code. From the developer's standpoint, no significant changes need to be made to the code, and it makes things faster if anything. More cache and more EDRAM, also dont make things "different", they actually make things easier. If i add another 8 GBs of RAM on my PC, it doesn't "change" the architecture. Regarding the GPU being "weird", I am not sure what you mean. It's an AMD Radeon part, so it can't be all that exotic. And considering its DX11 compatible, it should be a lot easier to program for than the DX9 GPU of the 360.

Of course, nobody claims that you should be able to port the 360 code and things would run faster without any work. But with all things considered, within 12 months from launch, this system should be 100% figured out by developers.


You just lost all credibility there in my eyes!!! The 360 is limited to DX8.1 at most, trying to artificially boost the system's capability to make the Wii U look bad is a very shameful thing. Naughty boy.

The 360 GPU is DirectX 9.0c and Shader Model 3.0+

And I don't even like Microsoft. They are very anti-consumer lately.

I was under the impression that the 360 was limited to DX8.1 and the API was not upgradable?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX .

 

I am actually both a Nintendo and 360 fan (Alan wake is one of the best visually pleasing games no matter what anyone says) so I did my research a few years back on this subject.  Did it change with the Valhalla Chip, b/c that is the version I currently have.

I wouldn't say anti-consumer...more defensive-minded in terms of their IP rights.



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ViktorBKK on 30 May 2013

"Support for a superset of DirectX 9.0c API DirectX Xbox 360, and Shader Model 3.0+"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenos_%28graphics_chip%29

Xenos was based on early prototypes of the Radeon X1000 series. Even its predecessor, the X800 series, supported DirectX 9.0b.



sales2099 on 30 May 2013

gens are defined by time and successors.....



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

curl-6 on 30 May 2013
ViktorBKK said:
Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc.

Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture. There is no "exotic" architecture involved, like PS3's mixed-core solution. Now obviously, some people want to believe that there is immense untapped power in this system. The cold hard truth is that Nintendo's system is based on 40-45nm silicon and runs at 75 Watts during full blown game-play. 80 dollar video cards from the same process node run at 100-130 watts. If you understand the principles of semi-conductor size and power consumption, then you know what I'm talking about. There is barely any hardware inside that console.

The fact that 360 and Wii U both have PowerPC CPUs doesn't make them similar. There's big difference between a 3.2GHz PPC CPU with 1MB of cache, a long pipeline, and no audio DSP, and a 1.2Ghz PPC CPU with 3MB of cache, a short pipeline, and an audio DSP. You need specific optimization to make code for one work well for the other.



KHlover on 30 May 2013
sales2099 said:
gens are defined by time and successors.....

I'm pretty sure the WiiU GPU was developed long after the PS3/Xbox360 GPU. ATI also had multiple generations of GPU's in between 2006 and now (HD3000-, HD4000-, HD5000-, HD6000-, HD7000-series - that's just the GPU's for the regular user). So, what exactly do you think is wrong with his claim?



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farlaff on 30 May 2013
oni-link said:
ViktorBKK said:
oni-link said:
ViktorBKK said:
curl-6 said:
ViktorBKK said:
The Wii U architecture is very similar to the Xbox 360.

It's not all that similar. There's more emphasis on memory subsystem management on Wii U, with large CPU caches (3MB versus 1 MB in 360) and a large EDRAM on the GPU (32MB versus 10MB on 360) intended to balance out a lower clockspeeds and main RAM bandwidth.  The GPU and CPU are quite different in architecture too; even ignoring the cache differences, the Wii U CPU is out-of-order-execution compared to 360's in-order-execution CPU, while the Wii U GPU is so weird that even after getting detailed pics the tech-heads still can't work it out.

The architecture is very similar actually. Both systems have 3 general purpose PowerPC cores in terms of CPU power. Out-of-order simply means that the CPU can execute commands in a different order than what is written in the code. From the developer's standpoint, no significant changes need to be made to the code, and it makes things faster if anything. More cache and more EDRAM, also dont make things "different", they actually make things easier. If i add another 8 GBs of RAM on my PC, it doesn't "change" the architecture. Regarding the GPU being "weird", I am not sure what you mean. It's an AMD Radeon part, so it can't be all that exotic. And considering its DX11 compatible, it should be a lot easier to program for than the DX9 GPU of the 360.

Of course, nobody claims that you should be able to port the 360 code and things would run faster without any work. But with all things considered, within 12 months from launch, this system should be 100% figured out by developers.


You just lost all credibility there in my eyes!!! The 360 is limited to DX8.1 at most, trying to artificially boost the system's capability to make the Wii U look bad is a very shameful thing. Naughty boy.

The 360 GPU is DirectX 9.0c and Shader Model 3.0+

And I don't even like Microsoft. They are very anti-consumer lately.

I was under the impression that the 360 was limited to DX8.1 and the API was not upgradable?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX .

 

I am actually both a Nintendo and 360 fan (Alan wake is one of the best visually pleasing games no matter what anyone says) so I did my research a few years back on this subject.  Did it change with the Valhalla Chip, b/c that is the version I currently have.

I wouldn't say anti-consumer...more defensive-minded in terms of their IP rights.

Rad this post (I swear it) seconds ago. Open Steam to look up Alan Wake and what do I see? It's there at a 90% discount. Gonna get my credit card ready...



My 1000th post: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9368779