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Forums - Politics Discussion - If Hitchen's challenge is correct, then why are there ethical lapses?

BenVTrigger said:

1. Most Atheism believes the Universe is self replicant.  Something I just cant behind when weve never observed it.

2. we HAVE observed someone creating something however and logically speaking it just seems like a more sound choice.  Again Ill use another thought experiment to illustrate my point.

3. Imagine you take 2000 bricks, a couple pounds of cement, and a bunch of TNT.  You put them all into a pile and blow up the TNT.  You repeat this process every time for 1 million years.  The pieces after the explosion never come together to build a house. In fact there is always pure chaos withpieces strewn everywhere without order.  The big bang (something most people who believe in Universe self creation believe) is this on an unimaginably bigger scale.  We never even get a house after a small explosion and Im expectwd to believe something as infinitly complex as the Universe is possible after the same senario?

4. If you walk up and see a house which is more logical.  That the house built itself or that a carpenter built it.


1. Where is your source that "most atheism believes the Univese is self replicant"? Sounds like blatant assumptions to me.

2. Yet we've never observed someone creating him or herself, which is what religion. The same problem is there for religion, just with a different label. And humans just rearrange what's already there anyway.

3. Chaos/randomness under different circumstances will lead to different results. For examples: sand dunes in the desert. The wind and movement of tiny sand particles is seemingly chaotic, yet over time very structured dunes will inevitably form. You and I aren't educated enough about the Bing Bang to know its minute circumstances and the probability for it to create strcuture.

4. Obviously the house didn't build itself, because in the observable universe we haven't noticed things create themselves. This is not applicable to outside the observable universe.



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BenVTrigger said:

Answer the question.  If you came up to the Mona Lisa or Statue of David which is more logical.  To believe that they created themselves or that a sculpture / painter made them.


Poor argument. You are bringing up human-made objects and asking if they were created. Of course they were created by humans. But for every human-made object, there's infinitely many more natural objects in the universe. And you can't use human-made objects to infer things about nonhuman-made objects.



Jay520 said:
BenVTriggersaid:

1. Most Atheism believes the Universe is self replicant.  Something I just cant behind when weve never observed it.

2. we HAVE observed someone creating something however and logically speaking it just seems like a more sound choice.  Again Ill use another thought experiment to illustrate my point.

3. Imagine you take 2000 bricks, a couple pounds of cement, and a bunch of TNT.  You put them all into a pile and blow up the TNT.  You repeat this process every time for 1 million years.  The pieces after the explosion never come together to build a house. In fact there is always pure chaos withpieces strewn everywhere without order.  The big bang (something most people who believe in Universe self creation believe) is this on an unimaginably bigger scale.  We never even get a house after a small explosion and Im expectwd to believe something as infinitly complex as the Universe is possible after the same senario?

4. If you walk up and see a house which is more logical.  That the house built itself or that a carpenter built it.


1. Where is your source that "most atheism believes the Univese is self replicant"? Sounds like blatant assumptions to me.

2. Yet we've never observed someone creating him or herself, which is what religion

3. Chaos/randomness under different circumstances will lead to different results. For examples: sand dunes in the desert. The wind and movement of tiny sand particles is seemingly chaotic, yet over time very structured dunes will inevitably form. You and I aren't educated enough about the Bing Bang to know its minute circumstances and the probability for it to create strcuture.

4. Obviously the house built itself, because IN THE OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE, we haven't noticed things create themselves. This is not applicable to outside the observable universe.

So basically your grand point is to throw human logic out the window and take wild stabs and guesses at what might have happened? Doesnt sound like science to me at all.

I dont even have a religion but there is far more evidence of intelligant design than accidental chaos coming together to create an infinitly complex existance.



BenVTrigger said:

But weve witnessed intelligant design.  Something that seems apparent in all things.

Answer the question.  If you came up to the Mona Lisa or Statue of David which is more logical.  To believe that they created themselves or that a sculpture / painter made them.

We know where paintings and sculptures come from, so I don't think this is as great an analogy as you apparently do.



Jay520 said:
BenVTrigger said:

Answer the question.  If you came up to the Mona Lisa or Statue of David which is more logical.  To believe that they created themselves or that a sculpture / painter made them.


Poor argument. You are bringing up human-made objects and asking if they were created. Of course they were created by humans. But for every human-made object, there's infinitely many more natural objects in the universe. And you can't use human-made objects to infer things about nonhuman-made objects.


Sure you can.  The single cell alone pretty much trumps the idea of chance.  You get into the whole realm of irriducibly complex parts and systems that had to coalesce simultaneously but that alone is a novel in itself.



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BenVTrigger said:

So basically your grand point is to throw human logic out the window and take wild stabs and guesses at what might have happened? Doesnt sound like science to me at all.


Point to where I've made any guesses. 

And you didn't answer my question about the source that most atheists believe in a self replicating universe. Did you just make that up?



badgenome said:
BenVTrigger said:

But weve witnessed intelligant design.  Something that seems apparent in all things.

Answer the question.  If you came up to the Mona Lisa or Statue of David which is more logical.  To believe that they created themselves or that a sculpture / painter made them.

We know where paintings and sculptures come from, so I don't think this is as great an analogy as you apparently do.


Sure it is its using known logic to extapolate on a grander scale things which are observable, repeatable, and measurable.  Things that adhere to the scietific method.  To inherintly assume things dont work in any way like everything we observe is to ignore the method.  



BenVTrigger said:
Torillian said:


But all that means is we can't disprove something that exists outside the laws of what we know.  Which is true since you take away every tool we've ever come up with for measuring or observing things around us.  That doesn't prove there is such a thing, just that we can't make you stop believing in it.  If I said that the land of My Little Pony was in another dimension you couldn't really disprove that either.

Also, the true view from a science perspective (which is the bulk of what atheism is based on) is that we just don't know how the universe came to be, but we're working on it.  it's true that science has not yet reached a satisfactory understanding of what that beginning was like, but it doesn't mean we should just assume some god did it.  That defeats the whole purpose.

Its not assumption its logic.  See my previous post.  The notion that science and a belief in god cant co exist is absurd and one of the biggest problems in modern day "scientific circles"


Of course they can co exist, the second we have reproducible experiments or even mathematical theories that prove god exists.  Until that point science and belief in god coexist in much the same way as science and any other mythology that can't be proven or disproven.  



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Jay520 said:
BenVTrigger said:

So basically your grand point is to throw human logic out the window and take wild stabs and guesses at what might have happened? Doesnt sound like science to me at all.


Point to where I've made any guesses. 

And you didn't answer my question about the source that most atheists believe in a self replicating universe. Did you just make that up?


No most atheists are not agnostic that Ive come across in personal experience.  Perhaps Im mistaken and if so my apologies.



BenVTrigger said:
Jay520 said:
BenVTrigger said:

Answer the question.  If you came up to the Mona Lisa or Statue of David which is more logical.  To believe that they created themselves or that a sculpture / painter made them.


Poor argument. You are bringing up human-made objects and asking if they were created. Of course they were created by humans. But for every human-made object, there's infinitely many more natural objects in the universe. And you can't use human-made objects to infer things about nonhuman-made objects.


Sure you can.  The single cell alone pretty much trumps the idea of chance.  You get into the whole realm of irriducibly complex parts and systems that had to coalesce simultaneously but that alone is a novel in itself.

So just because you have proved that some things were created, that means all things were created?

I....I don't know what to say to that.