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Forums - General - What is the answer to radical Islam? This is NOT an anti Islam thread

fillet said:
Badassbab said:
fillet said:
Proclus said:
I'm going to be extremely unpopular by saying this, but so be it, I'm entitled to my opinion like everyone else:

Stop mass bombing ordinary citizens, families and just general regular Muslims. Far too many innocent people have been killed during wars (Ill conceived wars or otherwise) due to either incompetence or unwillingness.

General bad attitude towards Muslims doesn't help either, bombing cities in the so called quest for their freedom and then doing a half-assed job or not at all to rebuild the cities and help the citizens generates a huge amount of animosity.

I think perhaps certain individuals join these radical groups over nothing more than a general dislike for Americans created during the Bush and Obama regime.

Just my honest thoughts.

You'll be more popular than my thoughts.

I basically mirror yours but the polar oppisite.

Without Muslims we wouldn't have these bombings/terrorims/acts of evil/disgusting people.

That's sounds stupid and narrow minded I know that, but at the end of the day, what can you do. You have a religion that has a substantial fringe that isn't being dealt with by their own people. Most Muslims although maybe not sympathetic to this fringe (I actually believe they are though, but that's purely speculation as I don't know enough to make such public general comment officially and I don't want to be attacked by the politically correct) certainly look away from the problem.

There's not enough of a voice from the Muslim religion as a whole condemning the terrorist acts - i.e murdering innocent people.

Look here now we have people like you who I guess aren't of Muslim faith looking for logical answers of what WE as westerners can do.

That says it all, I'm yet to see any statement from any Muslim EVER making such a sensible post/statement on the internet or in public who isn't politically motivated to make such a remark - and they only say it to quell the people like me complaining that they don't as a one off.

If there was such group in the moderate area, we wouldn't have the problem we face and I wouldn't need to make such posts as this.

 

(not having a dig at you at all in the above, just your post caught my eye)

The lopsided 'The Third Jihad' was made by a so called devout American Arab Muslim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw 

Personally I don't see how you could be a truly devout Muslim and make that documentary. Might as well just admit Islam (and other religions) have no place in the 21st century and become atheist Richard Dawkins style (minus the bigotry). 

I agree with both you and Proclus. Western terror (and that's what it is) contributes to rising Islamic terror but Islamic terror must be fought as it is such a terrible clerical fascist ideology that wishes to impose it's belief on others by force but it cannot be fought with military might alone, there needs to be a comprehensive review of Western Foreign policy in the region, it's been pretty atrocious. You don't exactly have an Iraqi tank, foot soldier, fighter bomber and attack helicopter outside your window do you? And one of the main contributors of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism has been Saudi Arabia, a major Western ally for the last 60 odd years and has been under the security umbrella of the US for that time too. How ironic is that?


I agree, I also agree with proclus. Which might sound contradictory - I think it has to come from both sides. Won't mince words, there really are two sides to this whatever the politically correct tools want to say.

I believe the west is doing far more positive in terms of dialogue (or attempting to) than the Muslim population.

Of course there's the fact that wars are being fought in "their" countries but the point is, that's where it came from to begin with. Colonialism ended getting on 50 odd years ago, we leave you alone, you leave us alone. :)

But yes, religion has no place in any society if it's causing others who aren't involved an inconvenience of any description let alone death. If the others in that religion aren't making the effort to curtail extreme elements of that religion - then they are part of the problem. It's pretty simple, if I was a devout Chrisitan and there was a substantial amount of terrorism taking place under the Christian name I would make damn sure that my voice is heard that I don't agree with it and want it to stop. It would be bringing shame on my beliefs.

I'm hearing nothing of the sort from Muslims.

Which leads me to believe that in all Muslims, there is a small something that actually thinks...You know what, although I won't murder and bomb myself, I sympathise with the motives for their actions.

War is one thing, terrorim is another. War is not terror no matter the parallels they share, they have differences that make them totally different things not that I agree with the war in Muslim countries but something isn't 1. evil or 2. not evil.

Colonialism may have ended but interference including violent interference by the West didn't. Also Islam hasn't been brow beaten by secularism like Christianity has, one reason being most Muslim countries haven't really been that independant for the last 500 odd years and so haven't really forged their own independant development for long. But Islams time to take such a beating by free thinkers in Muslim countries has already started and though such brave people are under death threats and some are paying the ultimate price, they are the first of many and their message will spread and eventyually Islam, like Christianiy will lose it's political influence and be consigned to the privacy of peoples homes. 



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Badassbab said:
fillet said:
Badassbab said:
fillet said:
Proclus said:
I'm going to be extremely unpopular by saying this, but so be it, I'm entitled to my opinion like everyone else:

Stop mass bombing ordinary citizens, families and just general regular Muslims. Far too many innocent people have been killed during wars (Ill conceived wars or otherwise) due to either incompetence or unwillingness.

General bad attitude towards Muslims doesn't help either, bombing cities in the so called quest for their freedom and then doing a half-assed job or not at all to rebuild the cities and help the citizens generates a huge amount of animosity.

I think perhaps certain individuals join these radical groups over nothing more than a general dislike for Americans created during the Bush and Obama regime.

Just my honest thoughts.

You'll be more popular than my thoughts.

I basically mirror yours but the polar oppisite.

Without Muslims we wouldn't have these bombings/terrorims/acts of evil/disgusting people.

That's sounds stupid and narrow minded I know that, but at the end of the day, what can you do. You have a religion that has a substantial fringe that isn't being dealt with by their own people. Most Muslims although maybe not sympathetic to this fringe (I actually believe they are though, but that's purely speculation as I don't know enough to make such public general comment officially and I don't want to be attacked by the politically correct) certainly look away from the problem.

There's not enough of a voice from the Muslim religion as a whole condemning the terrorist acts - i.e murdering innocent people.

Look here now we have people like you who I guess aren't of Muslim faith looking for logical answers of what WE as westerners can do.

That says it all, I'm yet to see any statement from any Muslim EVER making such a sensible post/statement on the internet or in public who isn't politically motivated to make such a remark - and they only say it to quell the people like me complaining that they don't as a one off.

If there was such group in the moderate area, we wouldn't have the problem we face and I wouldn't need to make such posts as this.

 

(not having a dig at you at all in the above, just your post caught my eye)

The lopsided 'The Third Jihad' was made by a so called devout American Arab Muslim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw 

Personally I don't see how you could be a truly devout Muslim and make that documentary. Might as well just admit Islam (and other religions) have no place in the 21st century and become atheist Richard Dawkins style (minus the bigotry). 

I agree with both you and Proclus. Western terror (and that's what it is) contributes to rising Islamic terror but Islamic terror must be fought as it is such a terrible clerical fascist ideology that wishes to impose it's belief on others by force but it cannot be fought with military might alone, there needs to be a comprehensive review of Western Foreign policy in the region, it's been pretty atrocious. You don't exactly have an Iraqi tank, foot soldier, fighter bomber and attack helicopter outside your window do you? And one of the main contributors of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism has been Saudi Arabia, a major Western ally for the last 60 odd years and has been under the security umbrella of the US for that time too. How ironic is that?


I agree, I also agree with proclus. Which might sound contradictory - I think it has to come from both sides. Won't mince words, there really are two sides to this whatever the politically correct tools want to say.

I believe the west is doing far more positive in terms of dialogue (or attempting to) than the Muslim population.

Of course there's the fact that wars are being fought in "their" countries but the point is, that's where it came from to begin with. Colonialism ended getting on 50 odd years ago, we leave you alone, you leave us alone. :)

But yes, religion has no place in any society if it's causing others who aren't involved an inconvenience of any description let alone death. If the others in that religion aren't making the effort to curtail extreme elements of that religion - then they are part of the problem. It's pretty simple, if I was a devout Chrisitan and there was a substantial amount of terrorism taking place under the Christian name I would make damn sure that my voice is heard that I don't agree with it and want it to stop. It would be bringing shame on my beliefs.

I'm hearing nothing of the sort from Muslims.

Which leads me to believe that in all Muslims, there is a small something that actually thinks...You know what, although I won't murder and bomb myself, I sympathise with the motives for their actions.

War is one thing, terrorim is another. War is not terror no matter the parallels they share, they have differences that make them totally different things not that I agree with the war in Muslim countries but something isn't 1. evil or 2. not evil.

Colonialism may have ended but interference including violent interference by the West didn't. Also Islam hasn't been brow beaten by secularism like Christianity has, one reason being most Muslim countries haven't really been that independant for the last 500 odd years and so haven't really forged their own independant development for long. But Islams time to take such a beating by free thinkers in Muslim countries has already started and though such brave people are under death threats and some are paying the ultimate price, they are the first of many and their message will spread and eventyually Islam, like Christianiy will lose it's political influence and be consigned to the privacy of peoples homes. 


I do hope so, because obviously that's the only real way forward and of course as we are all too aware Western intervention is a complete non-starter.



fillet said:

Completely different.

You're talking about terrorism over occupation issues.


Without Muslims we wouldn't have these bombings/terrorims/acts of evil/disgusting people.

You just said without muslims we wouldn't have bombings/terrorism...

I provided evidence that non muslim entities still bomb/use terrorism/perform acts of evil and can be disgusting people. Seems exactly the same to me.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

MikeRox said:
fillet said:

Completely different.

You're talking about terrorism over occupation issues.


Without Muslims we wouldn't have these bombings/terrorims/acts of evil/disgusting people.

You just said without muslims we wouldn't have bombings/terrorism...

I provided evidence that non muslim entities still bomb/use terrorism/perform acts of evil and can be disgusting people. Seems exactly the same to me.


Sorry I should have been more specific obviously I meant within the context of radical islam, "these" as in to say the ones that are carried out in the name of islam by extreme Muslims.

I'm not anti Muslim or anything and don't blame everything wrong in the world on them, for that I blame religion in general as being the root of all evil combined with complacency within the moderates in religion.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

As opposed to a non-Democratic Representative Republic, which is an unresponsive oligarchic collection of elites that aren't responsive to the wishes of the people?  Ultimately, either the government is responsive to the wishes of the people, or it isn't.  If you say "democracy is garbage" you don't want a government responsive to the people, but responsive to something else, and catering to a few.  Of course, you could the argue various forms of Minarchist, all the way out to anarchist, but that can end up turning into a battleground of abilities, complete with losers dying off.  Of course, seeing this (as most people do), ends up causing you to want to have SOME government out there, for SOME form of protection.  

Well, I am a minarchist, and I don't want a government that needs to be responsive to the wishes of the people. The government is not a genie and should stick to executing its one legitimate function - protecting the rights of the citizenry. Ideally, there would be no way for the majority to veto the rights of the minority or to award to itself special privileges at the expense of others.

If you do have any democratic principles at all, then eventually the people will end up causing their will to be imposed and unless the bulk of society agrees to things out of bounds, than either the will of the masses will rule, or the will of oligarchs on top will rule.  Thing about the "protection" is everyone will use power to get what they want in the name of "protection".  Banks needed to get bailed out so the economy didn't go down.  Businesses need tarriffs and subsidies in order to be protected from harm.  America has to go into nations to protect this interest or that.  To prevent problems from popping up, and protect people, there is initiatives done, nd things like welfare, to protect people.  There is disaster relief.  The need to protect people and their perceived "rights" ends up with a government that will forever grow.  

So, you can speak to "ideally" but the problem is that we live in what is.



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There needs to be a one size fits all solution to dealing with Muslims. Muslims who enter western nations should be monitored, closely tracked in order to prevent terrorism. The activities of Muslims need to be tracked by the government in order to keep us all safe and secure from possible Muslim terrorism. One Muslim terrorist act is too many but there have been multiple terrorist acts involving Muslims. Why do Muslim terrorists hate freedom and democracy?



badgenome said:
the2real4mafol said:

And i don't get the argument against changing cultures. If the muslims ever do it, it will be no different to how us whites destroyed the native american lifestyle and culture, the current American culture is against everything the natives ever stood for. 

So you don't get why Europeans would not want to end up like Native Americans...?

the2real4mafol said:

As for the Arab Spring, surely such countries like Egypt and Libya are moving towards progress steadily. 

Um... yeah. That didn't work out so well for Egypt, did it? While it wasn't a sustainable situation to have a dictator like Mubarak keeping a lid on the Islamists, things have only gotten worse since he was desposed. If there is progress being made there, it is going to be the same slow progress that has been made in Iran the college students of yesteryear were the Islamists and their children grow up to rebel against that.

The acid test in Egypt will be if rule of law can survive Mohammed Morsi. If the various organs of the state can remain independent of the Muslim Brotherhood, then the current climate in Egypt will only be a minor speed-bump towards a properly freer future, but if Morsi and the Brotherhood successfully subsume them, as Putin and United Russia have conquered every avenue of power within Russia (called "rule by law") without having to actually destroy said organs as dictators of old would have done, then we'll see some nasty, lasting damage.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Slimebeast said:

Unlike many other religions it is built into islam to conquer the world and submit the unbelievers. I think that is key here.

The muslims tried to conquer Europe as early as in the 8th century until the Franks stopped them. To constantly blame Western world atrocities as a cause for muslim aggression is naive and an expression of self-hate.

What should be done?

Try to stay out the Middle East to not aggravate islamists more than necessary. But I think it was right to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 to stop Al-Qaeda and it's certainly right that the US defends and supports Israel.

Stop funding Saudi-Arabia, Egypt and whatnot.

Restrict immigration from islamic countries to the West. Do not let muslims build mosques with tall minarets or call to prayer in Europe, and don't give them special rights that threaten the democratic prinicples of the West.

Try to decrease oil dependancy of OPEC.

Not true at all.  There's nothing in the Islam holy book that states to kill or provoke non-beilevers in any way. 

Now you don't say anything about how the Christians tried to do the same thing, but that behaviour isn't the way of the Bible, either.  It's the indiviuals that caused that, not the religion.  To think that is ludacris.   If they really wanted to conquer the World, don't you think they would have tried that by now?  And can you please clarify why do you think they want to kill everyone else who isn't Muslim?

It's not naive to think it's the West's fault, because it probably is.  We've been involved in so many wars in the middle east over the course of the last three decades, it's ridiculous.  It might be for oil.

Actually, I think the terrorist attacks on the US is a direct result of the hate that some Muslims have for this country because of their actions in the middle east. 

And as for you saying something about Israel, I don't see how you can side with a country that was formed from the lands Muslims have lived in for centuries and they form it without their consent or approval.   If the people who did 9/11 are terrorist, than the biggest terrorist is the United states of America and it's foreign policies.

Honestly, if you are going to make such a blatant claim, at least know what you're talking about first.  It makes you sound like a child.



3DS I.D : 3282-2755-4646

I make bad threads.  

SSB really went downhill after Melee....

Manlet Crew

Soleron said:
It's nothing to do with us bombing them (though we should pull out of course).

It's the West being blamed for the problems of society in the Middle East: the paradox of them being oil-rich but having inequality, lack of education, lack of basic freedoms, oppression of minorities and women.

That said I don't think these particular bombs were inspired by radical Islam. They didn't act like martyrs, and they didn't leave a public message that they'd done it like other groups do. I think it was more inspired by previous American bombings like Oklahoma.

I'd like to read your reason for why it's not us bombing them why they commit these acts.



3DS I.D : 3282-2755-4646

I make bad threads.  

SSB really went downhill after Melee....

Manlet Crew

I would say the same answer to any other extreme fundamentalist religion - education, exposure and human rights laws.

Extreme Religions prey on controlling people - the more extreme the more it controls. Look at how women can't even drive in many places. They don't have the same access to education and jobs as men, simply because of the gender they were born with.

Religions aren't all bad. But most of the extreme ones lead to their darker side.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!