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Forums - Politics Discussion - Margaret Thatcher RIP.

I heard years ago that she's supposed to get a state funeral send off, almost like a Royal funeral rather than a politicians.



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slowmo said:


Of course you have all your facts straight obviously...

Your arrogance is the reason people have acted in such a "disguting" fashion.  You have no concept of the suffering she caused some people.  How can your parents who were only "kids" know less than you who is reading "history" which of course is written by the victors, never the losers.  I was a kid growing up in that era and I assure you I knew what was going on. Stick to praising the good she did and not downplaying the damage she wrought.


Arrogance? Where?

I didn't praise any "good she did", or downplay any of the "damage she wrought". Except the pot-shot at the miners, if that's what you're referring to.

I clearly said at the start of the post that I'm not going to wave incense under her image.



SamuelRSmith said:
slowmo said:


Of course you have all your facts straight obviously...

Your arrogance is the reason people have acted in such a "disguting" fashion.  You have no concept of the suffering she caused some people.  How can your parents who were only "kids" know less than you who is reading "history" which of course is written by the victors, never the losers.  I was a kid growing up in that era and I assure you I knew what was going on. Stick to praising the good she did and not downplaying the damage she wrought.


Arrogance? Where?

I didn't praise any "good she did", or downplay any of the "damage she wrought". Except the pot-shot at the miners, if that's what you're referring to.

I clearly said at the start of the post that I'm not going to wave incense under her image.

 

That's not how your post read to me and the pot shot at the end was not required.  The arrogance is in stating you know more than people who lived through that period.



Ledreppe said:
I heard years ago that she's supposed to get a state funeral send off, almost like a Royal funeral rather than a politicians.


I'm sure the tories will manage to spend a fortune on celebrating her life somehow.



scottie said:
Thatcher is the one thing in this world that makes me wish religion is true.

I wish there were an afterlife, so she could suffer as much in it as she made people suffer in this life.

You know, i had almost the exact same thought (since i too am an agnostic).



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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kennyrester said:
Squint_Eastwood said:
 

Sorry to quote this entire thing but I'm on my mobile and can't select individual bit

The2real4myfol said; "Northern Ireland- she pretty much acted like the British Empire did there. She had the army repress the people there which caused widespread violence. It's no wonder the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton in 1984 Since, Labour devolved power to Northern Ireland in 1999, there has been much more peace." 

Now I'm fromNorthern Ireland. I don't know whether your comments were made in haste orignorance but I'm thinking a bit of both. Look up the Easter rising of 1916. Thatcher wasn't there. Or try the rebellion of 1798. Again, no Thatcher. Numerous other rebellions have occurred but alas, no evil Thatcher. Bloody Sunday (1972) is something else that gets placed at Thatchers door by the... Lets call them youth of today. It always gives me pleasure to inform them how she wasn't în power until almost a decadè later.

The IRA despised Thatcher because she said "NOd still she refused to budge, even when they threatened her life. She signed the Anglo Irish agreement in 1985, which she later admitted regretting as it caused more problems, but it was the only concession she offered.  Your claims that Labour brought peace to Northern Ireland is laughable.  In 1996 the IRA blew up the Conary Wharf, breaking another ceasefire and hoping to strongarm the British government. Luckily for the IRA, Labour were coming to power in 1997. They formed the Good Friday Agreement which oversaw the release of hundreds of prisoners convicted of paramilitary involvement as a goodwill gesture as well as enabling known IRA terrorists to take seats of power at Stormount Assembly. Gerry Adams is believed to have been activly involved in numerous bombings and has seen the inside of a prison cell. Martin McGuiness, Deputy Minister now, widely acknowlegded as the main man in Londonderry in the 70's. Alex Maskey, another porridge lover whos seen the inside of more prison cells than the average prison warden. Is this the devolved pwer you referred to by Labour? Also, remember the Masserrene Barracks incident that involved the death of British soldiers in 2009? There is still trouble here today, is that the fault of Thatcher? Your Labour goverment didnt have the stomach for a fight with the IRA. They gave more in a heartbeat than Thatcher.

The Falklands, she defended our territory as the people living wanted despite no backing up from Reagan or any non-communist european leaders. It's a shame, Argentina would just forget about it already. It was never theirs.

So, in complete contradiction of yourself, you agree she should have defended the Falklands because "the people living there wanted it." So did the people of Nortern Ireland. And Thatcher fought for it. I don't understand why you think there's a difference. 

Edit; I have been a bit disprespectful to Margaret Thatcher in my post. I meant to say "Lady Thatcher".


There may still be trouble in NI but far less than under Thatcher. Things have steadily improved since the Good Friday agreement. You seem to be disgusted by the fact that Labour "gave" more than Thatcher but the fact is fewer people are dying now. Is that not worth more than principles? Would "a fight with the IRA", as you put it have brought the same relative level of peace? Doubtful.

 

Your comparison between The Falklands and NI is ridiculous. In the Falklands 99% of the population want to remain British citizens. Not so in NI. They're totally, totally different situations and it's not contardictory in the slightest to admire her actions in one and not the other.

 

Finally, I don't really understand your first paragraph listing various historical events. The post you quoted didn't lay the blame for everything the British empire did in Ireland at Thatcher's door, just what happened under her.

Yes fewer people are dying which i am glad of. Nobody needs to die because of cultural differences. And to not give in to the IRA would have been bloody and disasterous. Concessions had to be made but the Good Friday Agreement was a disgraceful piece of legislation that allowed terrorists to stand for parliament. Released prisionere who should still be rotting. So your saying that terrorism should be the way forward? Lay down your arms and move to politics instead? Tell me what your thoughts are of an IRA memorial statue being erected in Crossmaglen of bombmaker Sean O'Callahan? Attended by Sinn fein representitives who campaigned to have it payed for by British taxpayers money to the cost of £30,000. But in the same breath they call for British soldier memorials to be taken down because they are antagonistic. Or the calls for the renaming of the Royal Victoria Hospital? Yes, Good Friday brought its peace by putting the terrorists in power. And its a fragile peace at that. 

A majority of Northern Ireland also wish to remain part of the UK. Its not 99% but its a majority. Hardly a ridiculous comparision of fighting for British land. 

My point about historical events is explained when you take the original posters words into context. Claims that she acted like the British Empire and opressed the people throigh the Army were not true. Yes it has happened before but it wasnt under her. That was my whole point. 



1337 Gamer said:
TeddostheFireKing said:
kowenicki said:
TeddostheFireKing said:
I was only born in 1992, so I never really appreciated what Thatcher did. I grew up in a Labour area near Liverpool, my dad and close family were Conservative though, but overall, I got a positive impression for Thatcher. The only people I get annoyed at are those who don't seem to know who she is or dislike her just for the sake of disliking her (cause they don't actually know what she did >.>).


or are brainwashed by their localtity and family tradition...  thats the problem with UK politics.  Most people havent got a clue. the only thing worse than them?  Champagne solcialist, or the comfortable traditionla middle scalss that want to look after the poor poor working classes.  Winds me up.

I like it when people like you... and me... kick against the grain.  I grew up next to (and went to school on) the biggest council estate in my locality.  I didnt sulk and think I'm screwed, the rich people hate us etc etc.  I decided that Iwould better myself and went for it.  You can be waht you want to be in Britain, mainly due to Thatcher.

I definitely agree with the bolded. These past couple elections, I ask all my family and older friends who they are going to vote for, the answer? Labour or Conservative, I ask why? Because they've always voted for them >.> That simply isn't a way to progress. I feel we need another Tony Blair style shake up of Parliament just to help break these issues (changing first past the post would also help, it's an absolutely awful system that needs to go).

It is fun to kick against the grain for sure :P One issue which always lands me in hot water is my strong affinity towards greater integration with the EU and dislike of America

You put it well though, in Britain, if you put the effort in, there is always a way to get a good job and a good life, which we can thank Thatcher for :)

May i ask why it is that you dislike America? Im just curious, as I personally think America is pretty dumb sometimes when it comes to foreign policy and what not but overall i think they are better than most countries out there. I just want to know your reasons for the resentment!

America's foreign policy annoys me somewhat, I studied the Cold War in College, their actions were often more provocative than the Soviet Union. Similarly, since the Soviet Union's collapsed, America's policy's have largely gone unchanged, except now, no one is there to directly oppose them (China and Russia don't stop them enough).

Part of it is also my dislike of British politicians who suck up to America too much, far too often do we help you out when it doesn't benefit us in any way and the cons out weigh the pros.



Squint_Eastwood said:
kennyrester said:
Squint_Eastwood said:
 

Sorry to quote this entire thing but I'm on my mobile and can't select individual bit

The2real4myfol said; "Northern Ireland- she pretty much acted like the British Empire did there. She had the army repress the people there which caused widespread violence. It's no wonder the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton in 1984 Since, Labour devolved power to Northern Ireland in 1999, there has been much more peace." 

Now I'm fromNorthern Ireland. I don't know whether your comments were made in haste orignorance but I'm thinking a bit of both. Look up the Easter rising of 1916. Thatcher wasn't there. Or try the rebellion of 1798. Again, no Thatcher. Numerous other rebellions have occurred but alas, no evil Thatcher. Bloody Sunday (1972) is something else that gets placed at Thatchers door by the... Lets call them youth of today. It always gives me pleasure to inform them how she wasn't în power until almost a decadè later.

The IRA despised Thatcher because she said "NOd still she refused to budge, even when they threatened her life. She signed the Anglo Irish agreement in 1985, which she later admitted regretting as it caused more problems, but it was the only concession she offered.  Your claims that Labour brought peace to Northern Ireland is laughable.  In 1996 the IRA blew up the Conary Wharf, breaking another ceasefire and hoping to strongarm the British government. Luckily for the IRA, Labour were coming to power in 1997. They formed the Good Friday Agreement which oversaw the release of hundreds of prisoners convicted of paramilitary involvement as a goodwill gesture as well as enabling known IRA terrorists to take seats of power at Stormount Assembly. Gerry Adams is believed to have been activly involved in numerous bombings and has seen the inside of a prison cell. Martin McGuiness, Deputy Minister now, widely acknowlegded as the main man in Londonderry in the 70's. Alex Maskey, another porridge lover whos seen the inside of more prison cells than the average prison warden. Is this the devolved pwer you referred to by Labour? Also, remember the Masserrene Barracks incident that involved the death of British soldiers in 2009? There is still trouble here today, is that the fault of Thatcher? Your Labour goverment didnt have the stomach for a fight with the IRA. They gave more in a heartbeat than Thatcher.

The Falklands, she defended our territory as the people living wanted despite no backing up from Reagan or any non-communist european leaders. It's a shame, Argentina would just forget about it already. It was never theirs.

So, in complete contradiction of yourself, you agree she should have defended the Falklands because "the people living there wanted it." So did the people of Nortern Ireland. And Thatcher fought for it. I don't understand why you think there's a difference. 

Edit; I have been a bit disprespectful to Margaret Thatcher in my post. I meant to say "Lady Thatcher".


There may still be trouble in NI but far less than under Thatcher. Things have steadily improved since the Good Friday agreement. You seem to be disgusted by the fact that Labour "gave" more than Thatcher but the fact is fewer people are dying now. Is that not worth more than principles? Would "a fight with the IRA", as you put it have brought the same relative level of peace? Doubtful.

 

Your comparison between The Falklands and NI is ridiculous. In the Falklands 99% of the population want to remain British citizens. Not so in NI. They're totally, totally different situations and it's not contardictory in the slightest to admire her actions in one and not the other.

 

Finally, I don't really understand your first paragraph listing various historical events. The post you quoted didn't lay the blame for everything the British empire did in Ireland at Thatcher's door, just what happened under her.

Yes fewer people are dying which i am glad of. Nobody needs to die because of cultural differences. And to not give in to the IRA would have been bloody and disasterous. Concessions had to be made but the Good Friday Agreement was a disgraceful piece of legislation that allowed terrorists to stand for parliament. Released prisionere who should still be rotting. So your saying that terrorism should be the way forward? Lay down your arms and move to politics instead? Tell me what your thoughts are of an IRA memorial statue being erected in Crossmaglen of bombmaker Sean O'Callahan? Attended by Sinn fein representitives who campaigned to have it payed for by British taxpayers money to the cost of £30,000. But in the same breath they call for British soldier memorials to be taken down because they are antagonistic. Or the calls for the renaming of the Royal Victoria Hospital? Yes, Good Friday brought its peace by putting the terrorists in power. And its a fragile peace at that. 

A majority of Northern Ireland also wish to remain part of the UK. Its not 99% but its a majority. Hardly a ridiculous comparision of fighting for British land. 

My point about historical events is explained when you take the original posters words into context. Claims that she acted like the British Empire and opressed the people throigh the Army were not true. Yes it has happened before but it wasnt under her. That was my whole point. 

Look, I hate Gerry Adams and I hate Sinn Féin, I really do. The inflammatory gestures you list are awful and characteristic of their petty, small-minded apporach to politics (although kind of irrelevant to the discussion, no?). But is it not better that Adams, McGuinness and their cronies lead their followers away from violence? Like it or not (and I don't) they were the only people that could do so. Their being elected is a crucial stepping stone away from violence and towards politics. Had that not happened you'd have politicians with much less public support and these former IRA men still operating outside of politics. It was of vital importance that the devolved government have as much public support as possible and to be seen as legitimate by as many as possible. I know it's unsavoury to have them in power but the hope is that when they're gone they'll be replaced by people with no such violent history. As you say, peace was bought by putting terrorists in power. That sucks but, given the alternatives, it's well worth it.

 

As for the Falklands comparison, the reason I said it was ridiculous was because you seemed to think it was somehow contradictory to admire Thatcher's actions there but condemn her actions in NI which it very obviously isn't.



Cobretti2 said:
Also, does anyone else find it ironic that people who are celebrating her dead, probably weren't even born when she was the PM.

But the very same could of course be said about people who are mourning her death, despite being born after she was PM.

BTW, I wonder how many hypocrites now find it immoral/inacceptable that many people are openly celebrating her death ("Ding dong, the witch/bitch is dead!"), while they were openly celebrating themselves when people like Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein were executed.



ArnoldRimmer said:
Cobretti2 said:
Also, does anyone else find it ironic that people who are celebrating her dead, probably weren't even born when she was the PM.

But the very same could of course be said about people who are mourning her death, despite being born after she was PM.

BTW, I wonder how many hypocrites now find it immoral/inacceptable that many people are openly celebrating her death ("Ding dong, the witch/bitch is dead!"), while they were openly celebrating themselves when people like Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein were executed.


I didn't celebrate any of their deaths... although i'd argue there is a marked bit of difference there where people can comfortably sit without being hypocritical.