Margaret Thatcher RIP.

[the2real4mafol]

kowenicki said:

the2real4mafol said:
Maybe the unions had too much power before Thatcher came into power but she destroyed numerous rural communities out there, manufacturing and mining were especially hit hard. Many places that grew on these 2 things haven't recovered since then, despite being 30 years. You may point out the miners strike of 84, but she was going to shut them down anyway. These people were fighting for there livelihoods and she took it from anyway. The community spirit in such places was destroyed for good and to think we could of been in a good position selling our good coal to China and India right now if the mining industry had survived. The hatred from the North is because so gutted such mining communities of there souls. 

And if manufacturing is so alive here, where is it? Every factory in my area has vanished, they are either abandoned or some housing development now.

And you surely can't defend the Poll Tax of 1989, in any system a Lord shouldn't pay the same tax rate as a council tenant, that's extremely unfair and i'm glad we the people defeated her on that (partly thanks to Scotland)

And you say she liberated the working class, how? Unemployment was much higher back then, i think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked. Deindustrialisation played apart but so did privatisation. Inflation was also high at 15% at times. Interest rates were as high as 15% at times. VAT was raised by alot, hurting the poor even more in a tough time. And i partly blame her for today's recession because of deregulating the finance sector (which only benefitted London by the way), which has lead to a rediculous bonus culture for CEO's of Banks. The massive sell off of our assets means we don't even benefit from the profit, British rail, BT, British gas and others had. The profits are now left in some off shore bank account doing nothing. And prices have gone through the roof since privatisation, just look at how expensive trains are these days and look at the huge profits British gas make despite falling energy prices.

I'm not sure how much this has to do with her, but the Media seemed to be biased in her favour by any media that Rupert Murdoch owned. It's possible she had a deal with him to get good press just like Tony Blair did. Man I hate the Sun, worst paper ever. News shouldn't be biased in anyway. Also, the BBC admitted it altered any footage of the Miner's strike to make it look like the police were attacked when it was the opposite way round.

Northern Ireland- she pretty much acted like the British Empire did there. She had the army repress the people there which caused widespread violence. It's no wonder the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton in 1984. Since, Labour devolved power to Northern Ireland in 1999, there has been much more peace.

Education- she did little to make it better and new schools and equipment was needed. I'm proud to have been educated under Labour for nearly my whole education. It's a shame Tories want to fuck it up now. 

I won't talk about Hillsbourough but there were many riots under her rule. Brixton being just one of them.

What good did she actually for Scotland, Wales, the Midlands etc. Scotland and Wales were completely controlled by Westminister back then but seemingly ignored by her

It's not all bad though i think some things she did were good.

The Falklands, she defended our territory as the people living wanted despite no backing up from Reagan or any non-communist european leaders. It's a shame, Argentina would just forget about it already. It was never theirs.

Despite mass privatisation, she left the NHS alone. Hopefully, Cameron will too.

She was a strong leader, did she ever really u-turn on anything?

Europe- i like that she was skeptic about the project. Just look at the mess it's in now, even though we are no better off. 

Finally

Socialism may be dead for now, but do you really think this form of capitalism is failing big time. Growing up into such a broken system now, i don't trust it. I'm gonna start a degree this year and might not even be able to get a job when i finish in 3 and a bit years time. the current economy shows no future at all. Not Thatcher's fault but it's capitalism fault. Boom and bust must stop now. A mixture of capitalism with Socialism is best.

Overall, better than Blair but i still overwhelmingly disagree with her. At least she could win a war. Also, Blair's ID cards idea was also bad

USSR- all she and Reagan did was put pressure on them. The Soviets couldn't handle it and so dissolved it and went to Capitalism. Gorbachev lead a peaceful transition to Capitalism. 

I dont want to get into a political debate here but a lot of that is frankly nonsense.

Proud to have been educated under Labour?  what the hell does that even mean?

Your last sentence about the USSR is hilarious... all she did?  lol. 

If I take two parts as an example of how you have been reading or listening to silly propaganda...

1. Labour gave devolution to N.Ireland!?!?  wtf?  Devolution was a Tory action, started in the early 1990's by John Major and completed in 1999 by Labour.  Learn your history. I worked in Belfast for a time in 1996, the army had all but vanished (sentry posts had gone) and the devolution talks had begun. Some of the worst happening in N.Ireland happened under Labour as much as Tory governments.

2. "I think it peaked at 3 million and she closed the GLC because that number was leaked"

Yes unemployment continued to rise under Thatcher at first... but it also ended up falling massively by the time her policies had taken hold.  And saying that she closed the GLC for leaking the number is a load of old bollocks.  The office for national statistice release unemplyment data monthly, always has, always will, why would the General London Council have anything to do with that!?  Very odd thing to say.

Also, manufacturing exports from the UK hardly changed under Thatcher... thats a fact. Yes certain industries closed.. rightly as they were dying and a mess, but other took their place.  Again by the end of her tenure the exports were rising dramatically. 

The UK is still in the top 10 biggest global exporters of goods and is the 3rd biggest global exporter of services.  Dont believe the hype that we have no industry.

Essentially the message is no gain without pain.  It was a pain, it was very painful for some, but it was a pain that was required and essential for the time.    Socialism isn't dead for now, its dead forever here, they lost the argument.

 

1. Northern Ireland got devolution as apart of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, a Labour government. Maybe John Major promised it but he got voted out before he could. Not like he could because of all the leadership challenges he faced ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

2. She didn't like the GLC though as it was a labour stronghold in the 1980's. In particular, she hated Ken Livingston. She saw him as a thorn in her side, because he wanted to do the opposite.

And you may point out GDP rose alot in the 80's, but alot of hard working class people never benefitted from it. Only bosses of big companies in the city gained, just like now. And it's only good if an industry like coal or steel closes, if you find away to grow other industries so these workers can work. The whole idea of a community was very much destroyed because some communities did one job type only. That's where the hate comes from.

And what's good having services if they are owned by a foreign company or individual, that profit made don't even stay here.

But you can say i'm brainwashed all you like, but to say socialism will never come back is certainly brainwashed. Stop reading the Daily Mail and just look at the real world. Most people aren't happy with the Tories or the Lib Dems or even Labour. Why else would there be so many strikes? They may not achieve anything but ordinary people aren't happy about the government before them today. When there's people relying on food banks because they don't get paid enough (they aren't scourgers!), When there's people who have to give up their cars and so on, the people will get angry. They want someone to actually represent them rather than a small elite of idiots who don't understand ordinary life for the working class. People like Iain Duncan Smith prove how stupid many MP's are, but i dare him to try to live on £53 a week! All the policies that today's Conservative government do, are certainly doing them no favours. Even there own followers are starting to have enough and are going to UKIP, while the Liberals mostly go to Labour. Conservatism isn't popular here, people just haven't found the alternatives yet. Either way, Market based Capitalism has failed and things must change. The UK is supposed to be a representative democracy and currently it certainly isn't that.