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Forums - Politics Discussion - Margaret Thatcher RIP.

kowenicki said:
the2real4mafol said:
kowenicki said:

heard it all before over decades.... not happening.

keep dreaming your idealogical dream. 

I can only say the same to you, we will see 

lol.. No you quite literally cant say that to me.  because right now I am correct, its happening... yours IS a dream at the moment.

I have heard the exact same thing you are sayiong for decades.... usually from students, but it never happens.  Why do you think that is?

When people finally get jobs and earn their own living... their perspective often and usually changes.  It's human nature.

 

Where is this socialist party going to come from?  Labour isnt remotely socialist, they were shaped by Blair, who took most of his noted from... yep... Maggie.

If we had a future to look too, then such ideas wouldn't be becoming popular. When people start getting decent wages, when the qualified start getting jobs that they worked so hard for, when jobs become plentiful again, then the radical ideas will die off. You are only conservative because the system has and is working so well for you and therefore don't want change. Thatcher lead the way for such people. But, many were not so forunate to benefit from her policies. I agree peoples views change often but if the economy don't get better soon, people will lose their patience and demand change. Revolutions happen when enough people have just had enough, it's whether enough people still support the state to stop it. I don't know how there hasn't been one in Greece yet (sorry off topic). But, so what if there ain't a major Socialist party here. Some people will see flaws in this form of capitalism and tweak and add odd parts of each ideology, when it makes sense. I may come across as Socialist to you, but i don't agree with all of it, some parts of Liberalism and Conservatism make sense to me as such parts of Socialism are flawed. No single ideology is perfect. Arguably, some see Ed Milliband to be taking Labour back left in some ways. (not's 80's Labour, which i don't want anyway) 



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

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TeddostheFireKing said:
1337 Gamer said:
TeddostheFireKing said:
kowenicki said:
TeddostheFireKing said:
I was only born in 1992, so I never really appreciated what Thatcher did. I grew up in a Labour area near Liverpool, my dad and close family were Conservative though, but overall, I got a positive impression for Thatcher. The only people I get annoyed at are those who don't seem to know who she is or dislike her just for the sake of disliking her (cause they don't actually know what she did >.>).


or are brainwashed by their localtity and family tradition...  thats the problem with UK politics.  Most people havent got a clue. the only thing worse than them?  Champagne solcialist, or the comfortable traditionla middle scalss that want to look after the poor poor working classes.  Winds me up.

I like it when people like you... and me... kick against the grain.  I grew up next to (and went to school on) the biggest council estate in my locality.  I didnt sulk and think I'm screwed, the rich people hate us etc etc.  I decided that Iwould better myself and went for it.  You can be waht you want to be in Britain, mainly due to Thatcher.

I definitely agree with the bolded. These past couple elections, I ask all my family and older friends who they are going to vote for, the answer? Labour or Conservative, I ask why? Because they've always voted for them >.> That simply isn't a way to progress. I feel we need another Tony Blair style shake up of Parliament just to help break these issues (changing first past the post would also help, it's an absolutely awful system that needs to go).

It is fun to kick against the grain for sure :P One issue which always lands me in hot water is my strong affinity towards greater integration with the EU and dislike of America

You put it well though, in Britain, if you put the effort in, there is always a way to get a good job and a good life, which we can thank Thatcher for :)

May i ask why it is that you dislike America? Im just curious, as I personally think America is pretty dumb sometimes when it comes to foreign policy and what not but overall i think they are better than most countries out there. I just want to know your reasons for the resentment!

America's foreign policy annoys me somewhat, I studied the Cold War in College, their actions were often more provocative than the Soviet Union. Similarly, since the Soviet Union's collapsed, America's policy's have largely gone unchanged, except now, no one is there to directly oppose them (China and Russia don't stop them enough).

Part of it is also my dislike of British politicians who suck up to America too much, far too often do we help you out when it doesn't benefit us in any way and the cons out weigh the pros.


I guess i can understand where your coming from. As an American i especially agree with the Bolded except the other way around. I feel we "help" -if you want to call it that- far too many countries where the Cons FAR outweigh the Pros.

Anyways thanks for answering. When i hear people dislike America im always curious as to why so i like to ask. Generally it all boils down to the same reasons



I mostly play RTS and Moba style games now adays as well as ALOT of benchmarking. I do play other games however such as the witcher 3 and Crysis 3, and recently Ashes of the Singularity. I love gaming on the cutting edge and refuse to accept any compromises. Proud member of the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race. Long Live SHIO!!!! 

A lot of lists i've seen put Clement Attlee as 1st or 2nd best PM since 1945, followed by Churchill then Thatcher. No one else compares to them



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

MakeAmazing said:

I dont agree with selling power/water, but actually most of these monopolies were totally inefficient. Thats governement for you... the bigger the system the more money/red tape thats required. So making them private companies and making competition cuts costs and improves systems on the whole.

The Coal mines, well lets be honest they are totally a waste of money. We can buy coal and get it shipped from Australia than digging up our own coal. When something is that inefficient there is no point keeping it going. Open coal mines are the most efficient, but we dont have the room over here to do that. Personally i would rather us waste that money we would spend on getting coal out of the ground on solar panels on every house.

Selling council houses actually helped house hold income and gave people more spending money - so it helped the economy, the *BIG* problem was that no one (conservatives or labour after) had considered building any more. So a bubble was created. The actual idea of people owning their own houses was fine, it was the rest of it that was the problem. In fact no goverment since the 80's has still fixed the housing issue... were still not building them in anywhere near high enough numbers.

 

The problem we have right now, is Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems are all pretty much reading from the same rhetoric, just worded/phrased differently. There is no big ideas from any of them to actually fix our current economy. Margaret Thatcher had these ideas, she implemented them. It worked spectacularly (hence unemployment turned a corner, people in general (looking at the nation as a whole) etc became better off. There were no constant rolling black outs with power. Rubbish was collected (in the 70s it was left in the street). Most of the haters, simply don't understand the reality of what life was like in Britain in the late 70s, like me, they hadn't been born at that point. It improved for the vast majority of people. Unlike the idiots posting hate on Facebook etc however, I've actually studied our history a bit more and have concluded I'm so glad I was born in 1983!

However, the communities and industries she devestated, took an utter hammering and it's easy to see why they have and never will forgive her.

Our economy right now is heading down a similar path and if we carry on having the lame duck career politicians running our country (be it Labour/Lib Dem or Tory) fiddling with little things while Rome is burning, only a figure as divisive as Thatcher would be able to bring anything back from the brink.

I disagree with a lot of the things she has done, however nobody has bothered to turn any of this around. You'd think she was the last politician in power from the way idiots (yes, they are idiots) blame her for current issues. We've had 5 general elections since she was in power. Warning signs for things like Housing/the upcoming energy crisis/Financial crash [more a result of Blair/Brown's continued relaxation of financial regulations] etc have all been around for over a decade. They chose not to act. Can't blame Thatcher for that. What was right for the country in the 80s wasn't still right in the mid 90s and even less so in the mid 00s.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Totally agree with you mike.



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kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
scottie said:
Thatcher is the one thing in this world that makes me wish religion is true.

I wish there were an afterlife, so she could suffer as much in it as she made people suffer in this life.

You know, i had almost the exact same thought (since i too am an agnostic).

Not to be too harsh.  But what the hell do you know about UK mid 70's and what she inherited and HAD to sort out.  Nothing!.

I lived it pal.

There's a special place in (the purely hypothetical) hell for unionbusters. Simple as that.

In an addendum, it's due to her policies that you guys would be Switzerland with nukes if not for the EU, just a place to play financial games.

Bolded: Like I said you havent got a clue.  Tell me about the history of the Miners union, about the individuals involved, then tell me about the winter of disconetent.  You cant, you know nothing of it.  

You joined the union in that job you eventually managed to get?

Bravo on the final sentence though... patronising, condescending, arrogant and totally wrong all in one handy package.

There is no union here, but there doesn't really need to be one. Government contracts tend to be fairly strict, so they get little leeway in how they can treat us.

Although i do wish that more American workers found their own damn testicles and stood up to companies. You lot would do well to do the same.

I don't doubt that there are complexities regarding the mining union, and yet if it weren't for folks like them and their predecessors, you would have never had the opportunity to get out of that slum you spoke of earlier. You would be a commodity. We all would be. Anyone who stands against that is a class traitor, and they were once dealt with appropriately, in a time when people were bolder.

You basically just said I should be dealt with as a class traitor.  I'd report you but whats the point. 

 

Wow.  Seriously.... WOW!  Your comments are from a time long gone.  Its frankly embarrassing that you talk of class wars and betraying your class?  Where the do you live?  How old are you?

Class traitor implies you can never leave your "class" or if you do you are a traitor and you imply deserve to be murdered?  Time when people were bolder? Are you bold enough to deal with class traitors?    Whats your class?  How often have you not eaten? 

The reason I left the slum I grew up in is because my father got of his arse and set up a business with a spade and a bike.  He made something of himself, after years of hard work and effort, we eventually moved. 

I studied hard at school and did well.  I got a decent job, seemingly much easier than you did in a time of much higher unemployment (cant think why?  I think i just have a better attitude, judging previous conversations) and I then eventually set my own business up and did very well.

I made something of myself just like my dad made something of HIMSELF. 

Stop pointing the finger and look after your own life.  We've had this conversation before.

Academic socialists... marginally above champagnse socilaists in my top 10 of people who deserve my contempt.

We agree on something at last: we each hold each other in contempt.

Nothing left to say on the matter.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

MikeRox said:
MakeAmazing said:

I dont agree with selling power/water, but actually most of these monopolies were totally inefficient. Thats governement for you... the bigger the system the more money/red tape thats required. So making them private companies and making competition cuts costs and improves systems on the whole.

The Coal mines, well lets be honest they are totally a waste of money. We can buy coal and get it shipped from Australia than digging up our own coal. When something is that inefficient there is no point keeping it going. Open coal mines are the most efficient, but we dont have the room over here to do that. Personally i would rather us waste that money we would spend on getting coal out of the ground on solar panels on every house.

Selling council houses actually helped house hold income and gave people more spending money - so it helped the economy, the *BIG* problem was that no one (conservatives or labour after) had considered building any more. So a bubble was created. The actual idea of people owning their own houses was fine, it was the rest of it that was the problem. In fact no goverment since the 80's has still fixed the housing issue... were still not building them in anywhere near high enough numbers.

 

The problem we have right now, is Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems are all pretty much reading from the same rhetoric, just worded/phrased differently. There is no big ideas from any of them to actually fix our current economy. Margaret Thatcher had these ideas, she implemented them. It worked spectacularly (hence unemployment turned a corner, people in general (looking at the nation as a whole) etc became better off. There were no constant rolling black outs with power. Rubbish was collected (in the 70s it was left in the street). Most of the haters, simply don't understand the reality of what life was like in Britain in the late 70s, like me, they hadn't been born at that point. It improved for the vast majority of people. Unlike the idiots posting hate on Facebook etc however, I've actually studied our history a bit more and have concluded I'm so glad I was born in 1983!

However, the communities and industries she devestated, took an utter hammering and it's easy to see why they have and never will forgive her.

Our economy right now is heading down a similar path and if we carry on having the lame duck career politicians running our country (be it Labour/Lib Dem or Tory) fiddling with little things while Rome is burning, only a figure as divisive as Thatcher would be able to bring anything back from the brink.

I disagree with a lot of the things she has done, however nobody has bothered to turn any of this around. You'd think she was the last politician in power from the way idiots (yes, they are idiots) blame her for current issues. We've had 5 general elections since she was in power. Warning signs for things like Housing/the upcoming energy crisis/Financial crash [more a result of Blair/Brown's continued relaxation of financial regulations] etc have all been around for over a decade. They chose not to act. Can't blame Thatcher for that. What was right for the country in the 80s wasn't still right in the mid 90s and even less so in the mid 00s.


A lot of heavy engineering industry has never recovered from her policies and the wide spread privatization has resulted in more expensive and poorer services.  The point being, you couldn't undo what she did, too much changed too quickly without any understanding of the ramifications.  As you rightly say, others have made mistakes since but you don't seem to have any issue planting blame at their feet it seems while expecting people to turn a blind eye to what Thatchers government got very very wrong.  The only idiots are those pretending events of the past didn't happen.  I heard a fine upstanding Tory this morning state that mining was done because we were running out of coal.  That of course is a lie they have tried to perpetuate to hide the fact they mistreated so many workers.  



We certainly aren't running out of coal, but its not cost effective to get it, so should we continue to do so?

As for Engineering we are pretty good as a country at that and have been for years, now if you meant Manufacturing... we haven't (and wont) be able to compete in that industry while countries like India and China pay their staff so little money... they can make items quite cheaply. Also they have lots of mineral resources under the ground, so whatever we make it isnt cost effective unless its high quality. This is why UK is better as a tech/engineering/services country rather than a manufacturing country.

For me i wish we would spend more on Space research, but there is too much negative thinking on that aspect in the UK.



kowenicki said:
Mr Khan said:
scottie said:
Thatcher is the one thing in this world that makes me wish religion is true.

I wish there were an afterlife, so she could suffer as much in it as she made people suffer in this life.

You know, i had almost the exact same thought (since i too am an agnostic).

Not to be too harsh.  But what the hell do you know about UK mid 70's and what she inherited and HAD to sort out.  Nothing!.

I lived it pal.

 

So did my family.



MakeAmazing said:
Soleron said:

...

I dont agree with selling power/water, but actually most of these monopolies were totally inefficient. Thats governement for you... the bigger the system the more money/red tape thats required. So making them private companies and making competition cuts costs and improves systems on the whole.

How? There is no competition for consumers in water, buses, or rail. For power, gas and telecoms, you can technically choose a supplier, but the physical pipe is the same and providers are clearly operating a cartel because prices go up in lockstep and do not fall when the wholesale price of gas/electricity/bandwidth falls. On the telecoms side, Britain is dense enough for 100Mbit fibre to be basically everywhere but the hills of Scotland, yet I am stuck with a <1Mbit connection on the top tier.

Something like mobile phones can be competitive because four independent physical networks operate and consumers have free choice which holds prices down.

I agree government monopolies are inefficient, but just putting the word private on them doesn't change that. There has to be meaningful competition between independent providers. Privatisation also makes the companies completely unaccountable - Thames Water is losing millions of gallons of water in leaks and they don't care; whereas a Government organisation could be made to change via political/media pressure.

The Coal mines, well lets be honest they are totally a waste of money. We can buy coal and get it shipped from Australia than digging up our own coal. When something is that inefficient there is no point keeping it going. Open coal mines are the most efficient, but we dont have the room over here to do that. Personally i would rather us waste that money we would spend on getting coal out of the ground on solar panels on every house.

Solar panels? In Britain? lololol. No, what we need is lots of new nuclear as a stopgap to clean nuclear fusion. Nuclear is now safe, in addition to being reliable and scalable unlike renewables.

Selling council houses actually helped house hold income and gave people more spending money - so it helped the economy, the *BIG* problem was that no one (conservatives or labour after) had considered building any more. So a bubble was created. The actual idea of people owning their own houses was fine, it was the rest of it that was the problem. In fact no goverment since the 80's has still fixed the housing issue... were still not building them in anywhere near high enough numbers.

Yep. We need to buld lots of houses and ignore planning regulations. They won't do it because house prices will fall...