The problem with snaking isn't that it's there. If you can do it, it might give you an advantage, and I'm cool with that.
The problem is that it's just too powerful, and makes the race boring.
Help! I'm stuck in a forum signature!
So it might be an option and we don't yet know how powerful it is? Then it might never get to be a problem, right?
| stranne said: So it might be an option and we don't yet know how powerful it is? Then it might never get to be a problem, right? |
Considering it's been in the last 3 Mario Karts, I'm sure if you don't like those games, you won't like this one.
I don't need your console war.
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.
You're power hungry, spinnin' stories, and bein' graphics whores.
I don't need your console war.
NO NO, NO NO NO.
The secret of good multiplayer games is that they need to be balanced, think about Starcarft, where all objects/tactics/creatures are strong against some and weak against others.
The rock paper scissors mentality.
In Mario Kart, everything is balanced, all items, the fact that they're given depending on your position during the race and so on...
Snaking
Snaking is a really cool feature, that rewards dedicated players, and it makes sense during corners, but it's not balanced.
A balanced tactic/object needs to have weakness as well as strengths, if you want a blue shell you will probably have to be 8th or 7th on the position.
With Snaking there are no weakness, and that breaks the rock paper scissor mentality.
That makes the game boring, as it makes any other tactic/item redundant.
It doesn't matter that you chunk a lighting bolt and then a blue shell to a guy, if he snakes, he will always be first.
I'm not fond of doing it, but if people like doing it, fine, do it.
I don't care what the rest of the population does, but please don't say that it is a tactic to punish n00bs because it's not, it's not a glitch either, it is part of the game, but not one that 90% of the population, and probably the ones that started on the SNES, enjoy.
Good multiplayer experiences are balanced.
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| ZenfoldorVGI said: I've had this argument about 10 times today already. "Drifting" is basically when you slide around a turn, and get a boost from tapping left to right on your analog stick(what have you) to get extra boosts around turns. "Snaking" or "Sidewinding" is the behavior of using this boost technique in straightaways. Now, "snaking" is what allows advanced players to overcome "Mario Kart" syndrome. Basically, Mario Kart uses rubber band AI, even in 1v1 human play, as the powerups you get will get better the further behind you are. This luck factor, much like in Super Smash Brothers, keeps matches from being too skill dependant. However, its a mistake to call snaking explotative. It's simply an advanced technique used by advanced players. It isn't really difficult, and it definately doesn't take away from the complexity of the game. To compete on higher levels of online play, yes, you will be required to use advanced techniques. That is one of the reasons many consider Mario Kart one of the coolest and most "hardcore" franchises on Nintendo consoles. There are advanced techniques that can overcome the casual luck advantage, such as knowledge of shortcuts, powerup usage, and snaking. Flaming the game for having techniques that require advanced controlling is in stark contrast to the usual complaints against most Nintendo games, which are the are too "easy" or too "casual." I would wager to bet that drifting and snaking will always be part of this series, and imo, it is the most intricate and excellent elements of gameplay that has been added to the series since its inception. Complaining because you can't casually beat expert players online with luck based powerups isn't exactly in the best interest of the people who will be playing Mario Kart online the most, nor is it in your interest to have a shallower game and relegate it to casual online play, due to its lack of meaningful advanced techniques. Yes, snaking is tricky. Yes, it's difficult to master. No, it's not explotative, and yes the game has balances to help newer players. Drifting is quite useful and nearly required in single player mode and vs the computer, which is a perfect place to perfect your snaking. To remove snaking, drifting would also have to be turned off. While I'm not totally against this option for online play, I personally would rather have it turned on. Now, an interesting option would be to created a GCD(Global Cool Down) between your drifts, of say 3 second intervals. You would have to wait 3 seconds after a drifting boost to begin powerups for another one, or to use any special abilities of your character(powerups). This would reduce snakings advantage, while still leaving it in the game, and create a more fair online experience for casual players, while at the same time, perserving some of the advanced techniques that set the more advanced players ahead of the pack. |
The problem is not about being unable to "casually beat expert players online." The problem is that these so-called "experts" are experts at only one thing, snaking. When one single lame technique becomes a substitute for real skill, the game devolves into Snaker Kart Online, and it's no longer an interesting game. The game would be less shallow, not more, if it wasn't a snakefest.
I'm not opposed to the drifting mechanic as it was originally intended to be used, the problem is that it should not give you so much of an advantage that it's faster to drift back and forth on a straight piece of track. Knowing the best way to drift through the turns is a perfectly good skill, but they overdid the speed boost and essentially forced players to snake through the entire track in order to be competitive. That's not intricate, it's not hardcore, and it's not "deep." It's just silly.
Snaking is crap. I am excellent at snaking but choose not do it as it ruins the game for those who cant snake and just want a good game. Still sounds like a good game tho.
| Entroper said: The problem is not about being unable to "casually beat expert players online." The problem is that these so-called "experts" are experts at only one thing, snaking. When one single lame technique becomes a substitute for real skill, the game devolves into Snaker Kart Online, and it's no longer an interesting game. The game would be less shallow, not more, if it wasn't a snakefest. I'm not opposed to the drifting mechanic as it was originally intended to be used, the problem is that it should not give you so much of an advantage that it's faster to drift back and forth on a straight piece of track. Knowing the best way to drift through the turns is a perfectly good skill, but they overdid the speed boost and essentially forced players to snake through the entire track in order to be competitive. That's not intricate, it's not hardcore, and it's not "deep." It's just silly. |
My issue is that the I actually think snaking is a difficult maneuver to pull off effectively, depending on the area of the stage.
The one problem with the original games was rubberband AI for all players. A single lightning bolt used at the correct time could wipe you out, and then knock you off the course.
Unlike your assertion, I myself believe that snaking isn't a guarnteed win, nor do I believe that it is a game breaking mechanic.
I feel its fairly easy to accomplish, however, I feel it is far more difficult to accomplish than anything else in the game.
It's obvious why this feature was originally added to the game. It was to add depth and evolve the game, along with the removal of the feather powerup, and to help balance the game more around player control than pure luck of powerups.
That's the crux. Rubberband powerups(still a staple) can make playing worse than your opponent, give a smart player a distinct advantage.
I basically can't understand your argument, I guess. While the drift isn't a perfect mechanic, I adamantly believe the game would lose far more from removing drifting, than it would gain from removing snaking. I think drifting is the best advancement ever added to the series.
Hearing someone say drifting ruins the game, just doesn't make sense, because if you hate drifting, then undoubtedly you hated the previous games, which all had drifting. Why is it so suprising and shocking that this game once again has drifting, which is basically what the game is.
To me, it's like saying "Oh, this zelda game is gonna have a boomerang? That's just silly." I'm not hearing "it's getting old" I'm hearing "the game sucks with drifting."
Obviously, most of you seem to be fans of the series, and I would wager that you would also be buying this game, drifting or not.
It also seems to me that the snaking aspect is one of the reasons I like Mario Kart, and not other racers. I am not a fan of the power block system or the luck system to be honest. However, in Mario Kart, unlike in other games, when I'm going around corners, or in straight aways, I have something else to press besides gas and break. That is snaking and drifting. It is a fun combination of buttons and a gameplay mechanic that you can take or leave, but the option is there, for timed runs.
It's a fun little mechanic that the online kids like to use to be competitive. I personally, don't want Nintendo to mess up the games mechanics, to pander to the online crowd.
We're alread taking a big step with the wheel and Wii remote here. The less they mess with the actual gameplay portions, the better. Taking away this mechanic without adding something to replace it would make the game less appealing to me.
Either way, it'll almost definatly have snaking, it'll almost definately sell millions and millions of copies, and n00bs will almost definately get raped. That's how Mario Kart works. The end.
I don't need your console war.
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.
You're power hungry, spinnin' stories, and bein' graphics whores.
I don't need your console war.
NO NO, NO NO NO.
I agree with the geneal sentiment. I know how to snake jsut fine but I do not do it unless I am trying a time trial or something.
IMO advance technique makes a game deep. You need to learn a track, master the best lines on every corner, and use drifting. I love drifting in fact because it really rewards skilled players. Best use of items, learning to drop back and dodge items trown by others. Holding shells behind you for protection. Taking shortcuts. Planned collisions for turns. etc etc etc.
All of those are racing techniques that anyone can master and you may occasionally do by accident as you try to learn the game, thereby teaching you the best techniques.
One way to deal with snaking is to increase recovery time. They made it quicker in double dash so that jerk out front could easily stay out front even with 3 people pounding him.
Final* Word on Game Delays:
The game will not be any better or include more content then planned. Any commnets that say so are just PR hogwash to make you feel better for having to wait.
Delays are due to lack of proper resources, skill, or adequate planning by the developer.
Do be thankful that they have enough respect for you to delay the game and maintain its intended level of quality.
*naznatips is exempt
| epsilon72 said: Oh...snaking again? No sale. |
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| ZenfoldorVGI said: My issue is that the I actually think snaking is a difficult maneuver to pull off effectively, depending on the area of the stage. Areas that have lots of turns strung together are tricky to drift through correctly, and I like that aspect of it. I don't like the aspect where you go faster down a straight piece of track by snaking back and forth. The one problem with the original games was rubberband AI for all players. A single lightning bolt used at the correct time could wipe you out, and then knock you off the course. This one I'm sort of split on. I'd like it to be more like Smash Bros. where you have the option to control the frequency of all the items. That way competitive gamers can disable the rubber-band powerups and have a more skill-based game. Unlike your assertion, I myself believe that snaking isn't a guarnteed win, nor do I believe that it is a game breaking mechanic. I feel its fairly easy to accomplish, however, I feel it is far more difficult to accomplish than anything else in the game. It's obvious why this feature was originally added to the game. It was to add depth and evolve the game, along with the removal of the feather powerup, and to help balance the game more around player control than pure luck of powerups. I think drifting was added to allow the player to drift skillfully around turns, not down straights. They just overdid the boost is all. That's the crux. Rubberband powerups(still a staple) can make playing worse than your opponent, give a smart player a distinct advantage. But that's a problem with the item system. I'd rather they fix that problem the way I described above than try to compensate for it by introducing an exploitative mechanic. I basically can't understand your argument, I guess. While the drift isn't a perfect mechanic, I adamantly believe the game would lose far more from removing drifting, than it would gain from removing snaking. I think drifting is the best advancement ever added to the series. Hearing someone say drifting ruins the game, just doesn't make sense, because if you hate drifting, then undoubtedly you hated the previous games, which all had drifting. Why is it so suprising and shocking that this game once again has drifting, which is basically what the game is. To me, it's like saying "Oh, this zelda game is gonna have a boomerang? That's just silly." I'm not hearing "it's getting old" I'm hearing "the game sucks with drifting." Obviously, most of you seem to be fans of the series, and I would wager that you would also be buying this game, drifting or not. I think we're closer in our opinions on this than it might seem from the argument. Like I said, I don't mind drifting if they just tone down the boost so that you go faster on straights by going straight. The series has always had drifting since the SNES, but on the SNES, it wasn't advantageous to "snake" by drifting back and forth along the entire track, only around tight corners. It also seems to me that the snaking aspect is one of the reasons I like Mario Kart, and not other racers. I am not a fan of the power block system or the luck system to be honest. However, in Mario Kart, unlike in other games, when I'm going around corners, or in straight aways, I have something else to press besides gas and break. That is snaking and drifting. It is a fun combination of buttons and a gameplay mechanic that you can take or leave, but the option is there, for timed runs. It's a fun little mechanic that the online kids like to use to be competitive. I personally, don't want Nintendo to mess up the games mechanics, to pander to the online crowd. What one person could see as pandering to the online crowd, another could see as improving the experience for the vast majority of their customers. What I don't want is to see them pander to the smaller number of players who enjoy snaking. We're alread taking a big step with the wheel and Wii remote here. The less they mess with the actual gameplay portions, the better. Taking away this mechanic without adding something to replace it would make the game less appealing to me. Either way, it'll almost definatly have snaking, it'll almost definately sell millions and millions of copies, and n00bs will almost definately get raped. That's how Mario Kart works. The end. |
My responses in bold above. BTW, props to you for engaging in the most civil disagreement I've had in weeks. :)
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