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Forums - General - To the Atheist members of vgchartz

Jay520 on 11 February 2013
TheLastStarFighter said:

Definition of a·the·ism


Dane, you are agnostic.


In case you missed this:

Some people need to understand what atheism is 

Atheism/theism is completely different spectrum from agnostic/gnostic. Atheism and theism deals with what a person believes. Agnosticism deals with what a person knows (or at least what s/he think he knows). If you believe in God, then you are a theist. If you don't, then you are an atheist (which doesn't necessarily mean you believe God doesn't exist). If you believe you know whether God exist or doesn't exist, then you are gnostic. If you believe it's impossible to know, then you are agnostic.

Agnosticism isn't some middle ground be atheism and theism. Agnosticism is compatible with both atheism and theism. With that said, there are four categories that a person can fall into:

  • Gnostic Theist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that at least one deity exists.
  • Agnostic Theist - A person who believes that at least one deity exists, but accepts that thre isn't enough information to know.
  • Agnostic Atheist - A person who does not believe in a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Explicit Atheist - A person who believes in the inexistance of a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Gnostic Atheist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that no deity exists (This group is composed solely of explicit atheists). 

There's two types of atheists. One, those who explicitly assert that no deity exist. And then there's everyone else, those who simply do not believe in a God. 

To describe all atheists, the only definition acceptable is "those who lack a belief in a deity". Once you start referring to people who explicitly believe in the lack of a deity, then you're talking about a specific group of atheists who DO NOT represent all atheists. 

- 

I'm sure you won't agree with it, but at least now you know that many self-proclaimed atheists don't follow the worldview you think they follow.



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dsgrue3 on 11 February 2013
DanneSandin said:
WereKitten said:
Jay520 said:
People aren't born with any philosophical beliefs.
Belief in God is a philosophical belief.
People are born without a belief in God.
Atheism is the lack of belief in God.
Thus, people are born atheists.
Atheism is the default position for everyone.


That might not be necessarily true, even from a strictly logical and scientific point of view.

In some sense we are born with "beliefs" ingrained in our brain, because having some basic tool for knowledge proved useful and was selected in Darwinian terms. For example we basically are all born empiricists, and we basically by default believe that tomorrow the world will work by the same basic rules as today.

But since atheism is the lack of belief in a god, we're all born atheists - even if we have other beliefs/understandings from the day we are born. And the question could be asked if we believe from our first breaths that the sun will rise tomorrow, or if that is an observation we make for years on end and therefore come to the conclusion that it'll rise tomorrow as well.

Not exactly.

Before you have pondered something, you have no opinion - apathy. It is at that moment that you consider the question that you form a belief.



twilight_link on 11 February 2013
Andrespetmonkey said:
twilight_link said:
Who is capable to understand this certainly not many and absolutely not 30% of any even highly educated western society, so the entire New Atheism is nonsense, moreover they create new idol -Darwin.

Darwin/evolution is a tiny reason (if a reason at all) for my atheism in comparison to other reasons, mostly philosophical rather than scientific. Seems the same for most other atheists I've interacted with regarding Darwin. I mean, evolution is completely compatible with many forms of theism, and definitely deism.  

this was not personal attack, it was only observation



DanneSandin on 11 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
DanneSandin said:
WereKitten said:
Jay520 said:
People aren't born with any philosophical beliefs.
Belief in God is a philosophical belief.
People are born without a belief in God.
Atheism is the lack of belief in God.
Thus, people are born atheists.
Atheism is the default position for everyone.


That might not be necessarily true, even from a strictly logical and scientific point of view.

In some sense we are born with "beliefs" ingrained in our brain, because having some basic tool for knowledge proved useful and was selected in Darwinian terms. For example we basically are all born empiricists, and we basically by default believe that tomorrow the world will work by the same basic rules as today.

But since atheism is the lack of belief in a god, we're all born atheists - even if we have other beliefs/understandings from the day we are born. And the question could be asked if we believe from our first breaths that the sun will rise tomorrow, or if that is an observation we make for years on end and therefore come to the conclusion that it'll rise tomorrow as well.

Not exactly.

Before you have pondered something, you have no opinion - apathy. It is at that moment that you consider the question that you form a belief.

Well, that is true - so we're all born apathetic in regards of god, if I understand you correctly?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Andrespetmonkey on 11 February 2013
twilight_link said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
twilight_link said:
Who is capable to understand this certainly not many and absolutely not 30% of any even highly educated western society, so the entire New Atheism is nonsense, moreover they create new idol -Darwin.

Darwin/evolution is a tiny reason (if a reason at all) for my atheism in comparison to other reasons, mostly philosophical rather than scientific. Seems the same for most other atheists I've interacted with regarding Darwin. I mean, evolution is completely compatible with many forms of theism, and definitely deism.  

this was not personal attack, it was only observation

I know, I saw the post as a general comment anyway. Just thought I'd share my view



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dsgrue3 on 11 February 2013
DanneSandin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Not exactly.

Before you have pondered something, you have no opinion - apathy. It is at that moment that you consider the question that you form a belief.

Well, that is true - so we're all born apathetic in regards of god, if I understand you correctly?

Yes. Absolutely.



dahuman on 11 February 2013

My family never gave a shit about religions or god to start with since our mental capacities are strong enough to not rely on the feeling of a better place based on fear and uncertainty. No matter how much you pray or beg to a god, life goes on, it doesn't make a shit difference other than the community uses and job hook ups etc or people waging wars based on different religions, and that's the reality of the situation.

Religions and Gods are not a necessity in life if you have a strong enough mind and can deal with pressure and life on your own, the end.



DanneSandin on 11 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
DanneSandin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Not exactly.

Before you have pondered something, you have no opinion - apathy. It is at that moment that you consider the question that you form a belief.

Well, that is true - so we're all born apathetic in regards of god, if I understand you correctly?

Yes. Absolutely.

I can't really argue against you since I don't disagree or find any fault in your reasoning. But I'm curious none the less; since atheism is not believing in gods, wouldn't that make a new born baby an atheist, since that baby is not believing in god? What I'm trying to get at is, that those persons could perhaps be called... apathetic atheists?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

dsgrue3 on 11 February 2013
DanneSandin said:
dsgrue3 said:
DanneSandin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Not exactly.

Before you have pondered something, you have no opinion - apathy. It is at that moment that you consider the question that you form a belief.

Well, that is true - so we're all born apathetic in regards of god, if I understand you correctly?

Yes. Absolutely.

I can't really argue against you since I don't disagree or find any fault in your reasoning. But I'm curious none the less; since atheism is not believing in gods, wouldn't that make a new born baby an atheist, since that baby is not believing in god? What I'm trying to get at is, that those persons could perhaps be called... apathetic atheists?

You're trying to put the reason before the thought. If the thought has never been contemplated you cannot know anything about it. You cannot say you have no belief, maybe you do - you don't know until it has been considered. The partial wave function has yet to collapse upon a definitive outcome - belief.



TheLastStarFighter on 11 February 2013
Jay520 4 minutes ago
TheLastStarFighter said:

Definition of a·the·ism


Dane, you are agnostic.


In case you missed this:

Some people need to understand what atheism is

Atheism/theism is completely different spectrum from agnostic/gnostic. Atheism and theism deals with what a person believes. Agnosticism deals with what a person knows (or at least what s/he think he knows). If you believe in God, then you are a theist. If you don't, then you are an atheist (which doesn't necessarily mean you believe God doesn't exist). If you believe you know whether God exist or doesn't exist, then you are gnostic. If you believe it's impossible to know, then you are agnostic.

Agnosticism isn't some middle ground be atheism and theism. Agnosticism is compatible with both atheism and theism. With that said, there are four categories that a person can fall into:

  • Gnostic Theist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that at least one deity exists.
  • Agnostic Theist - A person who believes that at least one deity exists, but accepts that thre isn't enough information to know.
  • Agnostic Atheist - A person who does not believe in a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Explicit Atheist - A person who believes in the inexistance of a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Gnostic Atheist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that no deity exists (This group is composed solely of explicit atheists).

There's two types of atheists. One, those who explicitly assert that no deity exist. And then there's everyone else, those who simply do not believe in a God.

To describe all atheists, the only definition acceptable is "those who lack a belief in a deity". Once you start referring to people who explicitly believe in the lack of a deity, then you're talking about a specific group of atheists who DO NOT represent all atheists.

-

I'm sure you won't agree with it, but at least now you know that many self-proclaimed atheists don't follow the worldview you think they follow.

When did I ever claim to know the views of other people?  Quite the opposite, I've been saying that we don't know what is in others minds and thougthts.  I also haven't gotten into my own views on theism.  I've simply talked about being open to other trains of thought, that there is such a thing as a passionate atheist, and that many people who call themselves atheist are by enlish definition terms better described as an agnostic.  People are free to describe themselves however they want but they can't change what dictionaries say.  That said, I'm not sure why I even posted in this thread in the first place, as I have little interest in the topic, lol.