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Forums - Gaming - To Clear up confusion on what makes Next-Generation

Mazty on 08 February 2013
Hynad said:
Mazty said:
timmah said:
Mazty said:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Giving you quotes from Reggie hardly counts as "nonsense". However claiming things like the industry isn't split over the Wii U does count as nonsense:

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/5044/20130202/electronic-arts-ceo-hints-wii-u-next-generation-has-seen-xbox-720-playstation-4-does-know-a-lot-about-valve-steambox.htm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/01/team_ninja_wii_u_is_definitely_next_generation

The ford mondeo outsells Ferrari. Does Ferrari consider the Mondeo to be a challenger? xD

You have no idea how market terms are defined, so you just make up your own definition to suit your bias. Are they in the same model year (Gen)? The WiiU/PS4/Nextbox will all be on the same graph on the front of VGChartz, and will be compared side by side in sales by all gaming media when they're all on the market. They all have the same basic feature set (DX11 type), only the horsepower is different. By your comparison, is a 2013 Ford Focus not in the same model year as a 2013 Ford Mustang? (model year in cars would be the market equivalent of console gens)

Also, WiiU is much closer to its competition power-wise this gen than Wii was last gen (same DX11 type feature set, much smaller power differential). That would make the WiiU more part of this gen than the Wii was part of the 360/PS3 gen by your incorrect argument.

EDIT: Another point, graphics card manufacturers release new graphics card 'series' or 'gens' based on feature sets and architecture, but there are different power specs on cards within the same series/'gen'. Just because the lower end card of the new generation of cards is not much better (power-wise) than a mid-range card in the last gen does not mean it's in the same gen as the older card. There are multiple factors, including architecture and feature set as well as release date to take into account.


Actually I'm pretty sure I know how the MARKET term is defined. Look at jet fighters which work with generations:

"Fifth-generation aircraft are designed to incorporate numerous technological advances over the fourth generation jet fighter"

Same can be said about games. Games are only called next-gen when they show tech advances over the games from the previous generation. All cars have a sterring wheel, axel and wheels. Should we then compare all of them on the same graph? 

We can't actually say the Wii U is close to the next-box or PS4 until we have confirmed specs. As it stands, what we have seen so far is a console that is on-par with the 360/PS3. 

Actually your point about GPU's proves me right. Low end GPUs are compared to the low end gpus of the generation before it. No one compared the GTX480 against the GT240 - they compared like to like. Using the Wii as an example, other than release date, how was it like the PS3 or 360? It was considerably weaker and didn't even run the same games. The same cannot be said about the 360 when compared to the PS3. 


Your argument is flawed. The Wii U does bring something new tech-wise compared to the 7th Gen. The GamePad as a main gaming device as well as asymetrical gaming was not part of the 7th gen.

You're basing all this on raw horsepower and graphics only. As if graphics were the be all end all of what defines a gen. 


Vita and xbox glass. Eyetoy didn't make the PS2 jump a generation. One thing =/= " numerous technological advances over the previous generation"



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Mazty on 08 February 2013
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?


Why are you in here argueing with everybody?  The Wii was obviosly after the same crowd and expanded with casuals just like X36- and PS3 expanded with move and kinect.  The wii also outsold both of them.  

Anyways i don't feel like argueing with you but i dont understand why you are argueing the way you are.

If the Wii was after the same crowds why did Nintendo make a console that a)focused on motion controls and b) wasn't able to play the vast majority of core games?

Saying the wii outsold them is akin to saying the ford mondeo outsells the dodge ram. Yes it does, but it's a comparison which has no value to it. Pens outsell Ferrari's - point?

*arguing 

lmao and in the meantime wii's software has also sold more than PS3/X360.  Wii being first and PS3 being in last nearly 200m copies behind.

Wii's software that's aimed at a different market. Why not compare Windows 7 sales while we're at it?



Jaywood2010 on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?


Why are you in here argueing with everybody?  The Wii was obviosly after the same crowd and expanded with casuals just like X36- and PS3 expanded with move and kinect.  The wii also outsold both of them.  

Anyways i don't feel like argueing with you but i dont understand why you are argueing the way you are.

If the Wii was after the same crowds why did Nintendo make a console that a)focused on motion controls and b) wasn't able to play the vast majority of core games?

Saying the wii outsold them is akin to saying the ford mondeo outsells the dodge ram. Yes it does, but it's a comparison which has no value to it. Pens outsell Ferrari's - point?

*arguing 

lmao and in the meantime wii's software has also sold more than PS3/X360.  Wii being first and PS3 being in last nearly 200m copies behind.

Wii's software that's aimed at a different market. Why not compare Windows 7 sales while we're at it?


Same market.  It's called the game market O.O  Why do you think Microsoft.Sony sees nintendo as a competitor?  




       

Hynad on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
Hynad said:
Mazty said:
timmah said:
Mazty said:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Giving you quotes from Reggie hardly counts as "nonsense". However claiming things like the industry isn't split over the Wii U does count as nonsense:

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/5044/20130202/electronic-arts-ceo-hints-wii-u-next-generation-has-seen-xbox-720-playstation-4-does-know-a-lot-about-valve-steambox.htm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/01/team_ninja_wii_u_is_definitely_next_generation

The ford mondeo outsells Ferrari. Does Ferrari consider the Mondeo to be a challenger? xD

You have no idea how market terms are defined, so you just make up your own definition to suit your bias. Are they in the same model year (Gen)? The WiiU/PS4/Nextbox will all be on the same graph on the front of VGChartz, and will be compared side by side in sales by all gaming media when they're all on the market. They all have the same basic feature set (DX11 type), only the horsepower is different. By your comparison, is a 2013 Ford Focus not in the same model year as a 2013 Ford Mustang? (model year in cars would be the market equivalent of console gens)

Also, WiiU is much closer to its competition power-wise this gen than Wii was last gen (same DX11 type feature set, much smaller power differential). That would make the WiiU more part of this gen than the Wii was part of the 360/PS3 gen by your incorrect argument.

EDIT: Another point, graphics card manufacturers release new graphics card 'series' or 'gens' based on feature sets and architecture, but there are different power specs on cards within the same series/'gen'. Just because the lower end card of the new generation of cards is not much better (power-wise) than a mid-range card in the last gen does not mean it's in the same gen as the older card. There are multiple factors, including architecture and feature set as well as release date to take into account.


Actually I'm pretty sure I know how the MARKET term is defined. Look at jet fighters which work with generations:

"Fifth-generation aircraft are designed to incorporate numerous technological advances over the fourth generation jet fighter"

Same can be said about games. Games are only called next-gen when they show tech advances over the games from the previous generation. All cars have a sterring wheel, axel and wheels. Should we then compare all of them on the same graph? 

We can't actually say the Wii U is close to the next-box or PS4 until we have confirmed specs. As it stands, what we have seen so far is a console that is on-par with the 360/PS3. 

Actually your point about GPU's proves me right. Low end GPUs are compared to the low end gpus of the generation before it. No one compared the GTX480 against the GT240 - they compared like to like. Using the Wii as an example, other than release date, how was it like the PS3 or 360? It was considerably weaker and didn't even run the same games. The same cannot be said about the 360 when compared to the PS3. 


Your argument is flawed. The Wii U does bring something new tech-wise compared to the 7th Gen. The GamePad as a main gaming device as well as asymetrical gaming was not part of the 7th gen.

You're basing all this on raw horsepower and graphics only. As if graphics were the be all end all of what defines a gen. 


Vita and xbox glass. Eyetoy didn't make the PS2 jump a generation. One thing =/= " numerous technological advances over the previous generation"


Oh really? Those were the main control scheme for their consoles? Those functionalities weren't used nearly to the extent the Wii U uses them, if at all. And what about asymetrical gameplay? Not to mention the social aspect of MiiVerse, not done on any other consoles, among other things. Nah. You have nothing. You base everything on horsepower. And even with that, you fail to realise the direct x 11 feature set equivalent that the Wii U is capable of,  a step up from last gen. Your argument fails. At this point, you argue just for the sake of it.




Badassbab on 08 February 2013

I agree with the OP. Next gen is about belonging to a generation not based on power alone or fancy control methods.

Back in the early 80's there was the Commodore 64 vs the ZX Spectrum. The C64 was a generation ahead in terms of power and yet the competed with one another. The ZX was half the price which was a big plus in it's favour. Imagine a young kid saving up to buy a video games machine or a parent on average income thinking of buying one as a present.

However for the last 4 gens previous to this one, all the consoles were roughly comparable (ish) in power and each generation was a huge leap in power compared to the last from all the major players. We have simply become accustomed to this. I welcome it but not everyone else cares about technology as much as they do about innovation. Nintendo is just taking a different route. It's played the power route with the SNES, N64 and GC and each time it lost more and more market share. The Wii changed all that. Whether the Wii U will carry on the success of it's older brother remains to be seen.






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Mazty on 08 February 2013
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:

Wii's software that's aimed at a different market. Why not compare Windows 7 sales while we're at it?


Same market.  It's called the game market O.O  Why do you think Microsoft.Sony sees nintendo as a competitor?  


The game market - that's like saying the "car" market. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that the people who love farmville are also those playing CoD? Same question can be applied to Just Dance and Bioshock.

Oh so you sit in on the Sony & MS meetings and know exactly what they think about Nintendo? Any chance of getting a transcript?



Mazty on 08 February 2013
Hynad said:
Mazty said:

Vita and xbox glass. Eyetoy didn't make the PS2 jump a generation. One thing =/= " numerous technological advances over the previous generation"


Oh really? Those were the main control scheme for their consoles? Those functionalities weren't used nearly to the extent the Wii U uses them, if at all. And what about asymetrical gameplay? Not to mention the social aspect of MiiVerse, not done on any other consoles, among other things. Nah. You have nothing. You base everything on horsepower. And even with that, you fail to realise the direct x 11 feature set equivalent that the Wii U is capable of,  a step up from last gen. Your argument fails. At this point, you argue just for the sake of it.

So how much of a difference has a touchscreen made in things like CoD and Darksiders? It's still a pad, with just a slight change. Plus you're ignoring the hardware underneath which shows an improvement in efficiency but we've yet to see anything that surpasses the PS3/360. 

Social aspect of Miiverse/aysmetrical gameplay =/= "numerous technological advances over the previous generation"

There is nothing about Miiverese or asymetrical gameplay that makes it next-gen. Hell, the sims has been around for ages so not sure why you think non-violent games is something special. 
If you don't base things on horsepower, every other argument so far just dissolves into contradiction and arbritary rules. Until the Wii U shows this step up from the next-gen, you are merely speculating it is next-gen. For all we know, unless you are a game dev, that the CPU may be bottle-necking the DX11 feature set. So far the exclusives haven't shown an improvment in graphics, and the ports perform considerably worse. 



Hynad on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
Hynad said:
Mazty said:

Vita and xbox glass. Eyetoy didn't make the PS2 jump a generation. One thing =/= " numerous technological advances over the previous generation"


Oh really? Those were the main control scheme for their consoles? Those functionalities weren't used nearly to the extent the Wii U uses them, if at all. And what about asymetrical gameplay? Not to mention the social aspect of MiiVerse, not done on any other consoles, among other things. Nah. You have nothing. You base everything on horsepower. And even with that, you fail to realise the direct x 11 feature set equivalent that the Wii U is capable of,  a step up from last gen. Your argument fails. At this point, you argue just for the sake of it.

So how much of a difference has a touchscreen made in things like CoD and Darksiders? It's still a pad, with just a slight change. Plus you're ignoring the hardware underneath which shows an improvement in efficiency but we've yet to see anything that surpasses the PS3/360. 

Social aspect of Miiverse/aysmetrical gameplay =/= "numerous technological advances over the previous generation"

There is nothing about Miiverese or asymetrical gameplay that makes it next-gen. Hell, the sims has been around for ages so not sure why you think non-violent games is something special. 
If you don't base things on horsepower, every other argument so far just dissolves into contradiction and arbritary rules. Until the Wii U shows this step up from the next-gen, you are merely speculating it is next-gen. For all we know, unless you are a game dev, that the CPU may be bottle-necking the DX11 feature set. So far the exclusives haven't shown an improvment in graphics, and the ports perform considerably worse. 

As I said, for you graphics = defines a gen. 

Well then, I suppose you still play with a 2 button + stick pad, right?



Hynad on 08 February 2013
20happyballs said:
Sorry, but disagree. I don't think that the term next gen can be unanimously defined. While I agree that your definition makes sense and can be used to define the console generations, my idea of what a console generation is different, as with many other people out there. Definitions are created by popular understanding. Many people believe that generations are started with a leap in technology, therefore a new generation can be and should also be defined as a generation that is a leap ahead of the prvious technology. Both our definitions are valid.


It is always a leap in technology. But a console's tech isn't only composed of its processor and GPU. The Wii brought the motion tech forward into the mainstream. The Wii U is bringing its Gamepad, an advance in graphical capabilities over what came before (modest or not), as well as an added focus on social features, which is going to be centric during its gen, among other things. 

A new gen is defined by a succession. Not by which console is the most powerful among all the others. A Corolla 2013 isn't less a 2013 car than a Civic 2013. Even if one has more horsepower or is more efficient than the other. One may have better energy saving functions, while the other may be more secure. The technology going into each products doesn't need to be put into the same exact parts to make them a part of a new gen of products.



Hynad on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:

Wii's software that's aimed at a different market. Why not compare Windows 7 sales while we're at it?


Same market.  It's called the game market O.O  Why do you think Microsoft.Sony sees nintendo as a competitor?  


The game market - that's like saying the "car" market. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that the people who love farmville are also those playing CoD? Same question can be applied to Just Dance and Bioshock.

Oh so you sit in on the Sony & MS meetings and know exactly what they think about Nintendo? Any chance of getting a transcript?

CoD games are available on the Wii, even if they're not all the same as the ones for the HD consoles. The Wii did get its share of FPS games, and had games representing all the genres.
The same for the PS3 and 360 with fitness and dance games. You're grasping at straws.