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Forums - Gaming Discussion - To Clear up confusion on what makes Next-Generation

Jaywood2010 on 08 February 2013
sales2099 said:

Kinda a hidden rule that you have to be relevant to be counted. Kinda the reason why people dont count Dreamcast in the 6th gen.


Thank you for making my point while i was absent XD




       

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Mazty on 08 February 2013
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?



DigitalDevilSummoner on 08 February 2013
JayWood2010 said:


In short: A console's generation is determined solely on which consoles it is in primary competition with.

...

Power and innovation has nothing to do with it.


I'm gonna meet you half way. A gen is about what you're up against but you are still gonna need either power or innovation to survive in that gen.



Jaywood2010 on 08 February 2013
DigitalDevilSummoner said:
JayWood2010 said:


In short: A console's generation is determined solely on which consoles it is in primary competition with.

...

Power and innovation has nothing to do with it.


I'm gonna meet you half way. A gen is about what you're up against but you are still gonna need either power or innovation to survive in that gen.

That i'll mostly agree with that.  Alhough for the past 2 generations the wekest console won both. PS2 and the Wii.  The WiiU miight be different though and end that streak.




       

Jaywood2010 on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?


Why are you in here argueing with everybody?  The Wii was obviosly after the same crowd and expanded with casuals just like X36- and PS3 expanded with move and kinect.  The wii also outsold both of them.  

Anyways i don't feel like argueing with you but i dont understand why you are argueing the way you are.




       

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timmah on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:

From the Wii, yes, but not compared to the PS3 or 360, therefore it's 7th gen, no?

If you don't compare all existing consoles to one another in terms of hardware, then how can you classify consoles which are not successors e.g. Xbox, Playstation etc?

No, the wii's competion was the X360 and PS3.  Something that is explained in the OP.  WiiU's competion will be the PS4 and the NeXbox.  hence 8th generation.  what is so hard to understand about all this?

Making an unsubstantiated claim doesn't give it truth.

The Wii was marketed at a different audience than the PS3 and 360 because the games were a) completely different and b) no multiplatform titles.

You are now just saying that a Ferrari and Dodge Ram are gunning for the same audience because they are both motor vehicles.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

So are you telling me the wii was not competition to the X360 and the PS3?  if so why did X360 adopt kinect and the PS3 move?

Market opportunity =/= competition. 

They both saw an opportunity to get into another market and did so. That doesn't mean the core consoles are competing for the same market. 

And games like Super Smash bros, Zelda, hell even Mad World was not aimed for gamers?  

Just make whatever useless comment you want to.  Im done and Im going to bed.  You are just throwing out useless nonsense now and to say that the wii wasnt competion is pointless.  Meanwhile Mario Kart Wii sells 30m and the wii out sells the X360 and PS3.  Gooooodnight for the final time

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Giving you quotes from Reggie hardly counts as "nonsense". However claiming things like the industry isn't split over the Wii U does count as nonsense:

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/5044/20130202/electronic-arts-ceo-hints-wii-u-next-generation-has-seen-xbox-720-playstation-4-does-know-a-lot-about-valve-steambox.htm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/01/team_ninja_wii_u_is_definitely_next_generation

The ford mondeo outsells Ferrari. Does Ferrari consider the Mondeo to be a challenger? xD

You have no idea how market terms are defined, so you just make up your own definition to suit your bias. Are they in the same model year (Gen)? The WiiU/PS4/Nextbox will all be on the same graph on the front of VGChartz, and will be compared side by side in sales by all gaming media when they're all on the market. They all have the same basic feature set (DX11 type), only the horsepower is different. By your comparison, is a 2013 Ford Focus not in the same model year as a 2013 Ford Mustang? (model year in cars would be the market equivalent of console gens)

Also, WiiU is much closer to its competition power-wise this gen than Wii was last gen (same DX11 type feature set, much smaller power differential). That would make the WiiU more part of this gen than the Wii was part of the 360/PS3 gen by your incorrect argument.

EDIT: Another point, graphics card manufacturers release new graphics card 'series' or 'gens' based on feature sets and architecture, but there are different power specs on cards within the same series/'gen'. Just because the lower end card of the new generation of cards is not much better (power-wise) than a mid-range card in the last gen does not mean it's in the same gen as the older card. There are multiple factors, including architecture and feature set as well as release date to take into account.



Mazty on 08 February 2013
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?


Why are you in here argueing with everybody?  The Wii was obviosly after the same crowd and expanded with casuals just like X36- and PS3 expanded with move and kinect.  The wii also outsold both of them.  

Anyways i don't feel like argueing with you but i dont understand why you are argueing the way you are.

If the Wii was after the same crowds why did Nintendo make a console that a)focused on motion controls and b) wasn't able to play the vast majority of core games?

Saying the wii outsold them is akin to saying the ford mondeo outsells the dodge ram. Yes it does, but it's a comparison which has no value to it. Pens outsell Ferrari's - point?

*arguing 



Mazty on 08 February 2013
timmah said:
Mazty said:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Giving you quotes from Reggie hardly counts as "nonsense". However claiming things like the industry isn't split over the Wii U does count as nonsense:

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/5044/20130202/electronic-arts-ceo-hints-wii-u-next-generation-has-seen-xbox-720-playstation-4-does-know-a-lot-about-valve-steambox.htm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/01/team_ninja_wii_u_is_definitely_next_generation

The ford mondeo outsells Ferrari. Does Ferrari consider the Mondeo to be a challenger? xD

You have no idea how market terms are defined, so you just make up your own definition to suit your bias. Are they in the same model year (Gen)? The WiiU/PS4/Nextbox will all be on the same graph on the front of VGChartz, and will be compared side by side in sales by all gaming media when they're all on the market. They all have the same basic feature set (DX11 type), only the horsepower is different. By your comparison, is a 2013 Ford Focus not in the same model year as a 2013 Ford Mustang? (model year in cars would be the market equivalent of console gens)

Also, WiiU is much closer to its competition power-wise this gen than Wii was last gen (same DX11 type feature set, much smaller power differential). That would make the WiiU more part of this gen than the Wii was part of the 360/PS3 gen by your incorrect argument.

EDIT: Another point, graphics card manufacturers release new graphics card 'series' or 'gens' based on feature sets and architecture, but there are different power specs on cards within the same series/'gen'. Just because the lower end card of the new generation of cards is not much better (power-wise) than a mid-range card in the last gen does not mean it's in the same gen as the older card. There are multiple factors, including architecture and feature set as well as release date to take into account.


Actually I'm pretty sure I know how the MARKET term is defined. Look at jet fighters which work with generations:

"Fifth-generation aircraft are designed to incorporate numerous technological advances over the fourth generation jet fighter"

Same can be said about games. Games are only called next-gen when they show tech advances over the games from the previous generation. All cars have a sterring wheel, axel and wheels. Should we then compare all of them on the same graph? 

We can't actually say the Wii U is close to the next-box or PS4 until we have confirmed specs. As it stands, what we have seen so far is a console that is on-par with the 360/PS3. 

Actually your point about GPU's proves me right. Low end GPUs are compared to the low end gpus of the generation before it. No one compared the GTX480 against the GT240 - they compared like to like. Using the Wii as an example, other than release date, how was it like the PS3 or 360? It was considerably weaker and didn't even run the same games. The same cannot be said about the 360 when compared to the PS3. 



Hynad on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
timmah said:
Mazty said:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Giving you quotes from Reggie hardly counts as "nonsense". However claiming things like the industry isn't split over the Wii U does count as nonsense:

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/5044/20130202/electronic-arts-ceo-hints-wii-u-next-generation-has-seen-xbox-720-playstation-4-does-know-a-lot-about-valve-steambox.htm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/01/team_ninja_wii_u_is_definitely_next_generation

The ford mondeo outsells Ferrari. Does Ferrari consider the Mondeo to be a challenger? xD

You have no idea how market terms are defined, so you just make up your own definition to suit your bias. Are they in the same model year (Gen)? The WiiU/PS4/Nextbox will all be on the same graph on the front of VGChartz, and will be compared side by side in sales by all gaming media when they're all on the market. They all have the same basic feature set (DX11 type), only the horsepower is different. By your comparison, is a 2013 Ford Focus not in the same model year as a 2013 Ford Mustang? (model year in cars would be the market equivalent of console gens)

Also, WiiU is much closer to its competition power-wise this gen than Wii was last gen (same DX11 type feature set, much smaller power differential). That would make the WiiU more part of this gen than the Wii was part of the 360/PS3 gen by your incorrect argument.

EDIT: Another point, graphics card manufacturers release new graphics card 'series' or 'gens' based on feature sets and architecture, but there are different power specs on cards within the same series/'gen'. Just because the lower end card of the new generation of cards is not much better (power-wise) than a mid-range card in the last gen does not mean it's in the same gen as the older card. There are multiple factors, including architecture and feature set as well as release date to take into account.


Actually I'm pretty sure I know how the MARKET term is defined. Look at jet fighters which work with generations:

"Fifth-generation aircraft are designed to incorporate numerous technological advances over the fourth generation jet fighter"

Same can be said about games. Games are only called next-gen when they show tech advances over the games from the previous generation. All cars have a sterring wheel, axel and wheels. Should we then compare all of them on the same graph? 

We can't actually say the Wii U is close to the next-box or PS4 until we have confirmed specs. As it stands, what we have seen so far is a console that is on-par with the 360/PS3. 

Actually your point about GPU's proves me right. Low end GPUs are compared to the low end gpus of the generation before it. No one compared the GTX480 against the GT240 - they compared like to like. Using the Wii as an example, other than release date, how was it like the PS3 or 360? It was considerably weaker and didn't even run the same games. The same cannot be said about the 360 when compared to the PS3. 


Your argument is flawed. The Wii U does bring something new tech-wise compared to the 7th Gen. The GamePad as a main gaming device as well as asymetrical gaming was not part of the 7th gen.

You're basing all this on raw horsepower and graphics only. As if graphics were the be all end all of what defines a gen. 



Jaywood2010 on 08 February 2013
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:
__XBrawlX__ said:
I stand by my statement that the WiiU is indeed the first what will presumably be the 8th Generation of consoles. These arguments about the power of a console determining a consoles "Generation" are simply incorrect. For example, the N64 was a 64-Bit console, and had superior graphical capabilities when compared with the PS1, which was only a 32-Bit console. Anyone who thinks that these two consoles were a apart of a different generation is simply wrong. The two were in direct competition with one another for sales and market share.

The Wii claimed a large casual market share, but the console was launched to challenge the PS3 and X360 in direct competition. It had its share of hardcore games. It was a 7th Generation console, there's no doubt about it.

Consequently, the successor to the Wii is the WiiU, and it is undeniably an 8th Generation Console.


Then explain why if Braid 2 was released for the PS4 it wouldnt be labelled next-gen if it was the same graphics. 

The Wii did not challenge the PS3 or 360. That's like arguing the Dodge Ram challenges the Ford Mondeo. The Wii was aimed at a different share of the market than the 360 and PS3. Just compare the game line up and it is obvious that is the case. It's share of "hardcore games" can be counted on one hand, and by hardcore games, I mean Western core games. 

You also use the faulty idea that successor = generational leap. If that's the case then how do you guage where the xbox starts without then introducing completely arbitrary rules?


Why are you in here argueing with everybody?  The Wii was obviosly after the same crowd and expanded with casuals just like X36- and PS3 expanded with move and kinect.  The wii also outsold both of them.  

Anyways i don't feel like argueing with you but i dont understand why you are argueing the way you are.

If the Wii was after the same crowds why did Nintendo make a console that a)focused on motion controls and b) wasn't able to play the vast majority of core games?

Saying the wii outsold them is akin to saying the ford mondeo outsells the dodge ram. Yes it does, but it's a comparison which has no value to it. Pens outsell Ferrari's - point?

*arguing 

lmao and in the meantime wii's software has also sold more than PS3/X360.  Wii being first and PS3 being in last nearly 200m copies behind.