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Forums - Politics - Should we Ban Guns?

 

What types of Guns should we ban?

All Guns 62 24.80%
 
All Guns, make guns legal... 16 6.40%
 
All Guns, in Major Cities... 9 3.60%
 
All Guns, except Hunting Rifles 16 6.40%
 
Just Handguns, they serve... 2 0.80%
 
Just Semi-Auto Rifles, a bit overkill 11 4.40%
 
None, but we should make ... 27 10.80%
 
None, we have a right to carry weapons 43 17.20%
 
None, I still don't beli... 42 16.80%
 
See Results 21 8.40%
 
Total:249

"You said there weren't any. I provided some. You can't change the argument afterward and then call folly. State what you mean, big guy."

Here here, Michael-5 seems to be pretty sloppy with his writing & thought process. I'm not going to get into an argument with someone who can't stick to what they're saying or even think about it before lecturing us.



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Michael-5 said:
Kasz216 said:

All available credible science shows that banning guns will accomplish nothing, and in fact likely makes the problem worse.

So your own disbelief mostly seems to stem from your lack of researching regarding the topic.

You'd find more scientific evidence to suggest banning videogames then you would guns.

Uhh... Really, that's your counter? I tell you that countries with laws that have lenient gun control polocies, and countries with free boarders to these countries have high high homicide rates, and countries with strict boarders do not, using your own data, and you say...

"My data says otherwise, despite you using it to make these claims."

WOW

Here, I'll give examples: Strict Boarders and strong regulations

Country-Homicide Rate

Australia-1.0
New Zealand-0.9
Japan-0.4
Hong Kong-0.2
Macau-0.7
South Korea-2.6
China-1.0
Canada-1.6
IceLand-0.3

Weak Regulations, or Weak Boarder Control
USA-4.8
North Korea-15.2 (LOL I had to add it)
Mexico-22.7
Russia-10.2

BTW, Drugs are a much much bigger incfluence on homicide rates. The two regions of the world with the highest homicide rates are South America and West Africa. This is why Mexico's homicide rate is so high despite strong regulations (lots of smuggling). Even when you look at US states, while Nevada has a high homicide rate and gun ownership rate, it's also got a lot of drug related problems, same with Puerto Rico.

Kasz216 said:

The US has as far as i know the lowest amount of "Hot" home invasions... aka robberies in which people are home when robbed.  In the US you don't rob someone unless you are 100% sure they aren't home because criminals are more afraid of homeowners then police. (actual study).

You're also 3 times more likely to get shot when there is a home robbery when you carry a firearm vs. when you don't. I also really doubt USA's "Hot" Home Invasion rate is lower then Canadas.

A)Mexico and Russia both have some of the strictist gun control policies in the world... and Russia polices the hell out of it's borders.  If you want to debate this stuff you should really be researching it rather then just making assumptions on who does what based on what thier murder rates are.

B) In the UK it's about 4 times more likely that you end up in a "hot invasion".   Not sure about Canada but there is no reason to suggest it would be otherwise. People are more likely to break into your house while your there if they are convinced you aren't going to shoot them.  How is that not common sense?



Michael-5 said:
Kasz216 said:
deskpro2k3 said:

Guns should not be easy to get.

I remember the Columbine High School shooting. Two students 17 to 18 years old, dressed like they came out from the Matrix with:
Intratec TEC-DC9
Hi-Point 995 Carbine
Savage 67H pump-action shotgun
Stevens 311D double barreled sawed-off shotgun
explosives
4 knives

 

this shyt is ridiculous


...which they aquired illegally.

Aquired Illegally, but still bought in the good old USA correct?

Does an old lady need a semi automatic rifle? Why should she be able to purchase one when she has a youth in the house with serious psychological issues?


...and?  I bet i could buy a gun in canada pretty easy too.  Or Japan... etc. 

It's not like illegal drugs make drugs hard to comeby afterall.



No. It's entirely absurd to think that banning guns will solve anything.

There's a reason most mass shootings happen in gun free zones...



Guns do not kill people. People kill people. Making guns harder to get may slow down fatal gun shootings. A person makes a choice to buy gun(s) to kill other people. If gun buyers were screened and the sale of guns more controlled and regulated, the rate of fatal gun shootings may be reduced.



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dsgrue3 said:
Michael-5 said:

That video is so biased.

A) Criminals will still keep weapons, and only law abiding citizens will follow the law? Aren't guns in the USA registered like in Canada? You go door to door and take away guns, or put individuals in jail. Also it's a slow process, don't ban all guns at once, start at semi automatics.

If it's already too dangerous to take semi autos from registered owners, USA has some big issues, gun related.

B) Mass Murders by young individuals - Happens too much in the USA. That video counters this by mentioning a cop who used a gun correctly? Obviously Gun should carry guns, that's a silly counter.

C) Violent Video Games - Yup, Canada, much lower homicide rate

D) USA is more violent - It is, statistically, USA is among the most violent country out of all the developed countries. Your video counters this by mentioning Mexico, but again, how hard is it to smuggle a gun into Mexico? Just because guns are banned, doesn't mean they don't find their way into the country.

D-II) LOL He mentions a Mass shooting in Germany. Like I said, a gun ban won't solve everything, you need to stop guns from comming into the country. Gemrnay has a free boarder, so just like in USA, people can easily bring in a gun from another country....illegally.

E) - Removing Guns = less violence? Not right away, I agree with your video, China is a good example, but mass stabbing result in less murders then mass murders.

Anyway, I watched 7 minutes of the video, it's arguing a different point them me. I'm talking about banning guns, and making it difficult to import weapons. What's the point of banning guns if people can still smuggle them in?

This is why Canada has never had a mass shooting, and never will (unless an American smuggles a gun into the country and does this himself). This is why our homicide rate is that much lower.

A) - Criminals use unregistered weapons, often times you hear of serial numbers being removed (to idenfity registration).

B) - Too much, maybe, but what is your point? This is about if taking away guns will help so this is quite obsolete.

C) - Don't follow, obsolete as well.

D) Violence

Rape (per 100,000)

# 1     France: 10,277   2009   
# 2     Germany: 7,292   2009   
# 3     Russia: 6,208   2009   
# 4     Sweden: 4,901   2009   
# 5     Argentina: 3,276   2008   
# 6     Belgium: 2,786   2009   
# 7     Philippines: 2,585   2009   
# 8     Spain: 2,437   2009   
# 9     Chile: 2,233   2009   
# 10     Lesotho: 1,878   2009   
# 12     Japan: 1,582   2009   
# 13     New Zealand: 1,308   2009   
# 23     Canada: 491   2009   
# 43     Australia: 91.6   2003 

# 57     United States: 30.2   2006   

Source

Assault Victims:

# 1     Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%   
# 2     United Kingdom: 2.8%   
= 3     New Zealand: 2.4%   
= 3     Australia: 2.4%   
# 5     Canada: 2.3%   
# 6     Finland: 2.1%   
= 7     France: 1.4%   
= 7     Denmark: 1.4%   
= 9     Sweden: 1.2%   
= 9     United States: 1.2%   

Source

Assault Crime (per 100,000):

# 1     Swaziland: 1,308.2   2004   
# 2     South Africa: 1,188   2002   
# 3     Mauritius: 1,044.9   2006   
# 4     Sweden: 845.2   2006   
# 5     New Zealand: 839.4   2006   
# 6     Australia: 797   2003   
# 7     United States: 786.7   1999   
# 8     Zimbabwe: 765.1   2004   
# 9     Israel: 763.3   2004   
# 10     Canada: 737.5   2006   

Source

D-II) Not sure what your point is. His point was mass shootings happen elsewhere when gun laws are stricter or completely banned.

E) Removing guns stops violence? No. Homicide? Let's see:

Notice the blue line is gun ownership rate, so one would expect to see decreased homicide rate (red dotted line) with the decreased gun ownership rate. We simply do not see such a trend.

F) No Canada Mass Shootings:

 

  • In the 1989 massacre of 14 women at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal, Marc Lepine used a Ruger Mini-14 rifle, at the time equipped with a substantial magazine.
  • And in 2006, Kimveer Gill used a Beretta Cx4 Storm to shoot 72 rounds at Montreal’s Dawson College, injuring 16 and killing student Anastasia DeSousa.

 

And that took about 5 seconds to google "Canada Mass Shootings".

Source

Final thoughts: 

It's good to debate these things, but not when you bring nothing factual to the table. Next time do some research so someone doesn't make you into a fool.

 

Look at the US incarceration rate (highest in the World) as to why it does well in some areas, not gun ownership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_rate

The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population

Guns to defend yourselves from the government, my a..



Rab said:

Look at the US incarceration rate (highest in the World) as to why it does well in some areas, not gun ownership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_rate

The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population

Guns to defend yourselves from the government, my a..

This has nothing to do with what I posted. Why did you quote me?



dsgrue3 said:
Michael-5 said:

A) Put people with posessions of these weapons in jail, and put owners of registered guns, who can't find them in jail as well. I understand if your gun was stollen, but if it was, you shouldn't be able to apply for a new one.

B) My point was your video mentioned this, but didn't address it. Guns rarely save others.

C) Obsolete? You're just saying that because you have no counter. USA and Canada have the exact same video games. So why does this only make Americans go on mass shootings, and in general kill more?

D) ~~~~~ USA is 3rd for Assault Crimes out of developed countries, 8th for Assault Victims, and far back on rape....However I can understand why Rape rates are so low in USA with Obesity rates being so high (36% Of Americans are Obese!, this is 3x the European Average).

Yup in General, Amricans (left the e out on purpose) are among the more violent people in developed countries.

D-II) His point about mass shooting happening in places with strict gun genulations is "obselete." It completly ignores the fact that Germany has free boarders, so gun smuggling is possible, and easy.

E) You realize that spike for countries with low homicide rates is due to Scotland and Ireland? A country with serious alcholism and drug issues? Remove that and yes, there is a trend. However, I meantioned this several times, drugs and alcohol are a bigger factor.

F) So guns not on the prohibitted list were responsible for Canada's only two shootings? One of which only had 1 fatality, the other being over 20 years old? Why not get statistics from the 19th Century while you're at it lol.

FT - Yes, you should, lol. Almost all your charts have been shown to help argue my side, not yours.

A) It is illegal to own unregistered weapons already. So saying "put these people in jail" is completely worthless. (How do you find them, bud?)

B) I didn't post any videos.

C) I asked what your point was? Surely you don't think video games are a problem here...

D) Let's compare US to Canada. You're 10x more likely to get raped in Canada than the US, 2x as likely to be an assault victim, and just as likely to have assault crime. Yep, Canadians far more violent.

D-II) You basically say that any open border is susceptible to guns, but neglect to admit that closed borders are equally susceptible.

E) You realize the spike for homicide rate is because of the USA right? Look at the other countries at the top for ownership rates - all low crime, or comparable to countries where ownership rates are low.

F) You said there weren't any. I provided some. You can't change the argument afterward and then call folly. State what you mean, big guy.

I think it's pretty clear which of us is actually using facts and not some preconceived notion. 

A) True, very true. You got me here, I guess I'm being a bit idealistic then, USA is a lot different then Canada.

B) All my comments are critiques to a video posted by..... JoetheBro. I assumed when someone quoted me, it was the same person who posted the video. Why did you critisize my comment about Mass Murders being caused by poor gun regulation if you had nothing to say about it?

C) My point was that video games aren't a problem. That Video I originally pointed out critisized video games as being the problem, but Canada and USA have the exact same video games, similar economies, and....USA's Homicide rate is significantly higher. My point is that video games aren't causing violence like the video suggested. Gun Culture, and acess to guns are contributing to it though.

D) Using that same website, you're also 20X more likely to get killed by a gunshot in the USA (40% FireArm Homicide rate in USA, Canada isn't even tracked, but it's below 2.6%), 10X more likely to be killed by a gun, and only 2X more likely to get raped

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims

Your own website is posting contradictory information. 15X as many rapes per capita, but the rape rate is only twice as high? (0.8% vs. 0.4%), and we have a population with an obesity rate which is less then half of yours....Kinda clear why that happens. Is this telling me the same people are getting raped?

Yes USA, is much more violent.

D-II) Why would closed boarders be equally susceptable? Canada has a closed border with USA, Japan and South Korea have closed borders, and lookie here....low low Homicide rates, especially with Guns.

E) Except for Finland.....wait Canada's Gun ownership rate isn't even that high, why are we on the left?

Also, you don't have to ban all guns. What about handguns. I don't know Canada's handgun ownership rate, but Toronto's Handgun ownership rate is about 3%, and look we have a low crime rate.

Why not just ban handguns?

F) True, but still 1 murder spree 20 years ago doesn't make much of a case.



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mrstickball said:
 

You really have done no research into the matter, and rely on emotions and ad-hominem attacks on gun owners to prove things, rather than look at any data that would refute your argument, and/or provide solid proofs on gun owners.

"If no one had guns, there'd be less homicides" - Why do you believe this? Where is your proof? Worldwide, there is a correlation between fewer guns and more crimes. The most violent nations in the world - Russia, Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, and Colombia all have gun bans, and have very few gun owners.

What you fail to grasp is why people kill each other. It isn't caused by the tool. Its caused by the individual. There are alot of statistics out there that point to lack of education, economic inequality, and other such metrics that follow homicides in the world, and especially the US. The reality is that US homicide statistics vary from European levels in New Hampshire (which allows you to carry a concealed handgun with no permits), to Louisiana (New Orleans has a homicide rate that is about 20 times higher than the US average).

 

I don't understand the importation question or issue - the same argument applies to everyone. Look at Mexico. They have a gun ban, yet the cartels have more weapons than the military. It should show you how truly frivilous gun bans are in the face of criminals that want to commit crimes. You have to go afterthe source of crime, rather than the tools.

 

Finally, you still have mass murders in other countries. Look at Finland - the worst gun shooting in many years was perpetrated in Europe, rather than America. You also still have bombings that kill even more people than any mass shooting has, and those go on around the world as well.

If you read what I said, I did says Drugs > Guns for causes to high homicide rates. Columbia and Sierra Lione are essentially they drug Capitals of the world. Plus, I don't think Brazil or Mexico that drug free either.

While Mexico has strong gun regulations....they boarder some of the most violent countries, and I hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of weapons are smuggled into the country.

Russia, has a huge boarder, and there's always a war somewhere in Russia. It's an easy country to smuggle guns into. The war in Georgia alone was responsible to the "disappearance" of many firearms. Plus the fall of the Soviet Union, and.... yea, there are a lot of illegal guns in Russia.

That's my point with this thread, countries with a lot of guns, legal or illegal, have high homicide rates. You just mentioned several countries with high homicide rates, and ALL of them either have drug or gun control issues.



LOL you insult my post on being an attack on guns based on emotions, but the rest of your post is all about your feelings. I never mentioned how effective a gun ban would be, and obviously we need to remove illegal guns just as much as legal ones. I'm talking about a Gun Ban, all guns, legal or not. Why the heck do you need them?

However I 100% agree with you about education, and causes for homicides. From my experience in the few law classes I took, it's alcohol, drugs, and a lack of education.

Seriously, why are there so many smuggled guns in the USA?



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chris_wing said:

"You said there weren't any. I provided some. You can't change the argument afterward and then call folly. State what you mean, big guy."

Here here, Michael-5 seems to be pretty sloppy with his writing & thought process. I'm not going to get into an argument with someone who can't stick to what they're saying or even think about it before lecturing us.

LOL, I zing you, and you come back with an insult. If your debating skills rely on insults, then you seriously lack any debating skills....or you just have no counter.



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