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Forums - General - Does absolute morality require a supernatural explanation?

 

Answer the damn question!

No 14 35.90%
 
Yes 13 33.33%
 
Absolute morality doesn't exist 12 30.77%
 
Total:39
RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:

We can value life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness because these things are universally deemed to be good on at least a personal level (e.g. while not all people might think that everyone deserves to be free, every individual will value his or her freedom).

Essentially (i told all y'all in this thread to read some Kant) the Golden Rule can serve as a god substitute, because we have these things that are universally valued on an individual level, such that we can know that violating these things is inherently wrong.

The questions come from the definitions of life (as seen in the questions of abortion and physician assisted suicide) liberty (namely the extent of property rights) and pursuit of happiness (is gratification a prime source of happiness), but we all can agree that none of us would like to be deprived of these things, and therefore understand that it is bad to do these things to others.

My issue is in regards to why we think that we have moral worth when we are just byproducts of an accidental evolution? In the grand scheme of things, being microspecks in a grand universe with no purpose except to eventually die off, why think our moral intrinsic value as any greater than a flea's? What actual basis of the golden rule ultimately makes that way of living any better than any selfish creature only looking out for his own best interests when looked upon from an atheistic point of view? There's no reasoning to think it would be bad to deprive others because with such a worldview, one cannot have inherently wrong and right morals based on anything. Nature is morally neutral. 

Significance doesn't matter, i would contend. Whatever our significance, or lack thereof, in the grand scheme of things, we as individuals know what we value, and we know the concept of fairness, therefore we can understand that getting what we want while not letting others get what they want is not right.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:
RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:
 

We can value life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness because these things are universally deemed to be good on at least a personal level (e.g. while not all people might think that everyone deserves to be free, every individual will value his or her freedom).

Essentially (i told all y'all in this thread to read some Kant) the Golden Rule can serve as a god substitute, because we have these things that are universally valued on an individual level, such that we can know that violating these things is inherently wrong.

The questions come from the definitions of life (as seen in the questions of abortion and physician assisted suicide) liberty (namely the extent of property rights) and pursuit of happiness (is gratification a prime source of happiness), but we all can agree that none of us would like to be deprived of these things, and therefore understand that it is bad to do these things to others.

My issue is in regards to why we think that we have moral worth when we are just byproducts of an accidental evolution? In the grand scheme of things, being microspecks in a grand universe with no purpose except to eventually die off, why think our moral intrinsic value as any greater than a flea's? What actual basis of the golden rule ultimately makes that way of living any better than any selfish creature only looking out for his own best interests when looked upon from an atheistic point of view? There's no reasoning to think it would be bad to deprive others because with such a worldview, one cannot have inherently wrong and right morals based on anything. Nature is morally neutral. 

Significance doesn't matter, i would contend. Whatever our significance, or lack thereof, in the grand scheme of things, we as individuals know what we value, and we know the concept of fairness, therefore we can understand that getting what we want while not letting others get what they want is not right.

The bolded is the problem, here. Not everyone "knows" the concept of fairness and what is right except what is indoctrinated by society and those around the person. Where does such a knowledge of fairness and value come from in a worldview without supernaturally indocterined morality? 



Kantor said:
Slimebeast said:
Of course it does. Absolute morals require a God. Only a God can make morals absolute.

Non-believers' morals are subjective and relative in that they're dependent on a bunch of ever-changing factors in the individual and in society.

Well, the morals of religious people change over time as well.

Consider the mainstream Christian positions on slavery, then civil rights, and most recently gay marriage/partnerships.

Most of them still believe in an absolute moral that comes from god. Only what they believe that moral is has changed.



I LOVE ICELAND!

RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Significance doesn't matter, i would contend. Whatever our significance, or lack thereof, in the grand scheme of things, we as individuals know what we value, and we know the concept of fairness, therefore we can understand that getting what we want while not letting others get what they want is not right.

The bolded is the problem, here. Not everyone "knows" the concept of fairness and what is right except what is indoctrinated by society and those around the person. Where does such a knowledge of fairness and value come from in a worldview without supernaturally indocterined morality? 

Babies understand fairness

This indicates that we likely have an innate concept of justice, a priori, which does not immediately disprove the idea of God (could lend credence to the concept of the Holy Spirit, that we have been given access to God's capacity for goodness, etc etc), but it does show that humans have a notion of justice without anyone having to explain anything to them, or threaten them with jail, inferior reincarnation, or eternal hellfire.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:

Significance doesn't matter, i would contend. Whatever our significance, or lack thereof, in the grand scheme of things, we as individuals know what we value, and we know the concept of fairness, therefore we can understand that getting what we want while not letting others get what they want is not right.

The bolded is the problem, here. Not everyone "knows" the concept of fairness and what is right except what is indoctrinated by society and those around the person. Where does such a knowledge of fairness and value come from in a worldview without supernaturally indocterined morality? 

Babies understand fairness

This indicates that we likely have an innate concept of justice, a priori, which does not immediately disprove the idea of God (could lend credence to the concept of the Holy Spirit, that we have been given access to God's capacity for goodness, etc etc), but it does show that humans have a notion of justice without anyone having to explain anything to them, or threaten them with jail, inferior reincarnation, or eternal hellfire.

Only 2/3rds of the babies shared their toys and showed a concept of fairness, and amongst those there were babies that only offered their least favorite toy. That's not a universal, absolute sense of morality. It just shows that morality is varied amongst others as they choose and also to what degree. Even if there is a correlation, having such doesn't give enough justification to dub those that act on them any morally superior than those who don't from an evolutionary standpoint, specifically in cases where going against established morality would benefit yourself greatly.



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RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:
RCTjunkie said:
Mr Khan said:

Significance doesn't matter, i would contend. Whatever our significance, or lack thereof, in the grand scheme of things, we as individuals know what we value, and we know the concept of fairness, therefore we can understand that getting what we want while not letting others get what they want is not right.

The bolded is the problem, here. Not everyone "knows" the concept of fairness and what is right except what is indoctrinated by society and those around the person. Where does such a knowledge of fairness and value come from in a worldview without supernaturally indocterined morality? 

Babies understand fairness

This indicates that we likely have an innate concept of justice, a priori, which does not immediately disprove the idea of God (could lend credence to the concept of the Holy Spirit, that we have been given access to God's capacity for goodness, etc etc), but it does show that humans have a notion of justice without anyone having to explain anything to them, or threaten them with jail, inferior reincarnation, or eternal hellfire.

 

Only 2/3rds of the babies shared their toys and showed a concept of fairness, and amongst those there were babies that only offered their least favorite toy. That's not a universal, absolute sense of morality. It just shows that morality is varied amongst others as they choose and also to what degree. Even if there is a correlation, having such doesn't give enough justification to dub those that act on them any morally superior than those who don't from an evolutionary standpoint, specifically in cases where going against established morality would benefit yourself greatly.

 

Well nobody's going to have an absolut sense of morality inherently, certainly, but neither does it need to be supernaturally explained. What the study shows is that the babies have a rudimentary sense of justice, something that, with our rational minds, we can sort out into something more comprehensive and absolute, but that this germ of goodness comes from us (which again, may indirectly be of divine origin) and doesn't need to be transmitted through any sort of scripture, prophet, or messiah.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

KungKras said:
Dodece said:
@KungKras

What you are describing is to the letter the justification for Genocide, Slavery, Colonialism, Inquisitions, Misogyny, Pogroms, Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, Bigotry, Concentration Camp, Environmental Exploitation, and just about every war in the history of mankind. In other words you may need to rethink your positions on this question. I doubt you would care too much for your option if you were in the minority.

Since when were genocides justified by "The most abmount of people will benefit from this"?

It was always "Our people will benefit from this" that led to those things. Some colonialists didn't even think of the people in the lands they conquered as humans.

I fail to see the similarity. More human suffering and death = less moral, and more human well-being = more moral. Seems like a perfectly good definition to me.

Well for example.  Sterlyzing everyone who has a genetic disorder now will cause less suffering over the long term as nobody will be born with stuff like taysachs disease.

Or just the outright murder of everyone with aids.  Then no more aids.  Sure your killing people now, but in the future far less people will die.

It's like the old question.  Would you kill one man for the cure to cancer.  You'd have to kill an innocent man but MILLIONS would be saved.


"For the greater good" allows for all sorts of attrocities against the individual.



@RCT

Well obviously if tie your definition of morality to God's character, then of course there can't be morality without him. Basically you're saying "humans lack the ability to be "God" which is quite obvious.

If your definition of morality isn't what's best for the most people possible, then morality is pretty useless. If morality isn't what's best for most people, then why should people be "moral"? We shouldn't. We should do what's best for the most people possible, and if that's not moral by your definition, then humanity shouldn't be "moral". Either way, doing what's best for the most people possible would have the same end result as acting morally.



Kasz216 said:
KungKras said:
Dodece said:
@KungKras

What you are describing is to the letter the justification for Genocide, Slavery, Colonialism, Inquisitions, Misogyny, Pogroms, Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, Bigotry, Concentration Camp, Environmental Exploitation, and just about every war in the history of mankind. In other words you may need to rethink your positions on this question. I doubt you would care too much for your option if you were in the minority.

Since when were genocides justified by "The most abmount of people will benefit from this"?

It was always "Our people will benefit from this" that led to those things. Some colonialists didn't even think of the people in the lands they conquered as humans.

I fail to see the similarity. More human suffering and death = less moral, and more human well-being = more moral. Seems like a perfectly good definition to me.

Well for example.  Sterlyzing everyone who has a genetic disorder now will cause less suffering over the long term as nobody will be born with stuff like taysachs disease.

"For the greater good" allows for all sorts of attrocities against the individual.

If you want to take it to an individual plane, if those people do have kids, they are personally responsible for all the suffering of their children, and the generations after them. In that example though, there might be the third option of eventual gene therpay or other treatments that can appear with scientific progress. But I get what you mean, there is also the classic paradox of the hospital with one healthy man and four with severe organ failures, is it moral to kill the healthy man if his organs will allow the other four guys to live?

Such situations might be a flaw in my definition, but remember that the absolute morality championed by different churches is often used to commit even worse atrocities against individuals, for much more arbitrary reasons. I also think, since there can be an actual debate, with real world facts about what is more moral (IE best for the most people) it is the best definition so far. Winston Churchills famous quote of "Democracy is without a doubt the worst form of government, if you disregard all others" comes to mind.



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Mr Khan said:
RCTjunkie said:

Mr Khan said:

 Babies understand fairness

This indicates that we likely have an innate concept of justice, a priori, which does not immediately disprove the idea of God (could lend credence to the concept of the Holy Spirit, that we have been given access to God's capacity for goodness, etc etc), but it does show that humans have a notion of justice without anyone having to explain anything to them, or threaten them with jail, inferior reincarnation, or eternal hellfire.

 

Only 2/3rds of the babies shared their toys and showed a concept of fairness, and amongst those there were babies that only offered their least favorite toy. That's not a universal, absolute sense of morality. It just shows that morality is varied amongst others as they choose and also to what degree. Even if there is a correlation, having such doesn't give enough justification to dub those that act on them any morally superior than those who don't from an evolutionary standpoint, specifically in cases where going against established morality would benefit yourself greatly.

 

Well nobody's going to have an absolut sense of morality inherently, certainly, but neither does it need to be supernaturally explained. What the study shows is that the babies have a rudimentary sense of justice, something that, with our rational minds, we can sort out into something more comprehensive and absolute, but that this germ of goodness comes from us (which again, may indirectly be of divine origin) and doesn't need to be transmitted through any sort of scripture, prophet, or messiah.


How can we trust our minds to be able to rationally come up with what the "absolute" morals (justice, fairness, etc) are when it is derived from nature being morally neutral and evolving so much over time? Is it from what the majority believes is fair and moral?  It seems odd to say that no one has an absolute sense of morality but claim that absolute moral laws exists. We as humans can try to decide what our morals are and how we live as humans for the most fairness and well-being of everyone, but it cannot be claimed based on that there's an absolute morality and code of conduct that everyone agrees is right or wrong. A natural explanation of the universe involves so much evolution of creatures and survival of the fittest that it can only lead to "morality" being whatever is most adaptable for survival, which really isn't morals or objectively good.