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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The Official Legend of Zelda Thread: Echoes of Wisdom Out Now

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Are you planning to buy Echoes of Wisdom?

I already pre-ordered 5 38.46%
 
Picking it up soon 4 30.77%
 
Waiting for a sale 2 15.38%
 
No, it's not for me 2 15.38%
 
Total:13
HoloDust said:

Maybe that's cause I'm 50+ years old and I've played Zeldas and open world games whole my gaming life.

Simply put, BotW formula is not very much to my liking, neither as open world game, and especially not as Zelda game. There is some really good stuff in it, but there is just not enough to make it something that I like or care for very much, especially since lot of old stuff was thrown away. So, if Zelda keeps on in this direction, I'll just move on from it, like I did with some other IPs I loved so much that were too drastically changed - there's never really shortage of great games out there.

Your age doesn't make a difference. I've been playing Zelda games all my life too. And BotW and TotK appeal to me more than any other Zelda game.

You didn't like BotW. Why are you playing TotK then? You were complaining so much here and yet you still play it?

I gotta say, at least you don't lie like these idiots on Metacritic saying there are no changes from BotW in the overworld and the game only runs at 20fps and there are only koroks and shrines and nothing else and the dungeons are exactly like the divine beasts and the world is empty and barren blablabla.

It's rather absurd. I, who knows BotW's world through and through notice every even smallest difference everywhere and in many places barely recognise anything in TotK, but people who clearly barely played BotW if at all think nothing changed and hate on it.



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KLXVER said:

So when is the Hyrule Warriors for this game coming?

I was actually wondering about this myself.  Since Age of Calamity is technically an alternate timeline, Ganondorf must be sealed there as well.  It would be interesting to see how his return to form would come about in an sequel to Age of Calamity, and how he could potentially break from his seal early (since there is no 100 year time skip here).

In any case I do expect a Hyrule Warriors game to cover these themes, but in the form of a direct sequel to AoC rather than being directly tied to TotK itself.



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Kakadu18 said:
HoloDust said:

Maybe that's cause I'm 50+ years old and I've played Zeldas and open world games whole my gaming life.

Simply put, BotW formula is not very much to my liking, neither as open world game, and especially not as Zelda game. There is some really good stuff in it, but there is just not enough to make it something that I like or care for very much, especially since lot of old stuff was thrown away. So, if Zelda keeps on in this direction, I'll just move on from it, like I did with some other IPs I loved so much that were too drastically changed - there's never really shortage of great games out there.

Your age doesn't make a difference. I've been playing Zelda games all my life too. And BotW and TotK appeal to me more than any other Zelda game.

You didn't like BotW. Why are you playing TotK then? You were complaining so much here and yet you still play it?

I gotta say, at least you don't lie like these idiots on Metacritic saying there are no changes from BotW in the overworld and the game only runs at 20fps and there are only koroks and shrines and nothing else and the dungeons are exactly like the divine beasts and the world is empty and barren blablabla.

It's rather absurd. I, who knows BotW's world through and through notice every even smallest difference everywhere and in many places barely recognise anything in TotK, but people who clearly barely played BotW if at all think nothing changed and hate on it.

I bought TotK for my son, who liked BotW a lot - it's actually only Zelda game he finished, since he always gets stuck in classic 3D Zelda dungeons. I'm playing it cause I want to see it for myself - and while I actually find Gfinity's review fairly well written and thought out, yet somewhat exaggerated in certain places, I don't rely on reviews to tell me how good any game is.

There are plenty of stuff in BotW formula that I find to be good...and then there are crapload that I find to be bad. I don't intend to get into detailed debate about that for the umpteenth time around here, but let's just say that I find lot of core game design and gameplay loop to be less than satisfying. And yes, my age makes a lot of difference in that opinion, since I've played crapload of openworld games in my life, both old and new, and I find BotW formula to easily break after certain amount of hours, becoming somewhat of a repetitive and predictable tedium and lacking well executed progression.

Unlike some of the overzealous fans around here, I have no problem criticizing video game franchise that is in my TOP 10 of all times (believe you me, I will bury deep in the ground new Fallout or Tomb Raider, so it's not Zelda only) - because I can see lot of the flaws in past installments, just like I can see the flaws in current installment - and I can vividly imagine formula that fixes both. That's why it's not "masterpiece" for me, and that's why I'm not raving about it without objectivity that a lot of people around here and on a larger scale seems to be showing.

As I said, I'll push on, hoping it won't become a chore. There are already stuff that I like quite a bit in TotK (Depths takes the crown for now, its Gloom "penalty" reminds me of numerous examples of similar mechanisms from Pen&Paper RPGs), and if narrative structure is really better (and it seems that it is), I might even end up liking it more than BotW - that is, if I keep to quests only and avoid most of the fluff and pointless padding (and as someone who actually likes well designed padding in open world games, I find current formula's padding to be surprising amount of times poorly executed).

Anyway, back to the game.



This notion that everyone should just agree outright that BotW and TotK are both undeniable masterpieces and everyone who disagrees is wrong is a bit, well, creepy and concerning. I can't say anything about Tears of the Kingdom since I haven't played it, and I probably won't for a very long time still, but I never thought Breath of the Wild was a masterpiece. It's an excellent game, and one I enjoyed very much, but it's nowhere near the pedestal so many people have placed it on, in my opinion of course. I don't begrudge anyone who loves the game and considers it one of the greatest games ever made, but I also easily understand how others may not view it in a similar way.



Runa216 said:
Hiku said:

Incidentally I was just in a call with a friend, and he was ranting for about 10+ mins about how he doesn't like Tears of the Kingdom or BOTW and doesn't understand the appeal.
A few days ago some other friends of mine were saying similar things.

It's a bit of a strange feeling when something is getting critical acclaim, but almost everyone I personally know dislikes it.
I'm also in that camp of not being interested in BOTW from what I played, and it's not the first time I've been on the complete opposite end of the popularity spectrum. For me God of War 2018 was about a 5/10 in terms of how entertaining it was, but most people seem to love it to death.

For Zelda I think it's mainly series fatigue for me, more so than the different direction.
It used to be a series that elicited a very magical feeling for me, where I couldn't wait to play the new one. And the ride home after buing a Zelda game felt like an eternity.
Nowadays I don't feel interested. And when I force myself to play, I don't get into it, with the exception of A Link Between Worlds.
I wish that wasn't the case. Because few games have been as magical to me as Zelda games.

oh, I get not liking it. There's plenty of games out there that are masterpieces that I personally can't stand. Mass Effect Trilogy is a great example. Pretty much all of that team's games I dislike...but that doesn't make them bad. 

I can 100% understand why someone might not like what Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom do. They have a very specific appeal and some people don't care for that. I get there's plenty of reasons not to like a masterpiece like Red Dead Redemption II, given its adherence to a sort of simulation feel instead of feeling video gamey. I get it, but there's a difference between 'a game that I don't like' vs 'a bad game'. 

I do not understand how anyone can look at Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom and say they aren't masterpieces. (And no, 'the framerate ain't great' or 'the resolution is less than I'm used to' are not good arguments.) The arguments people are using just make no damn sense to me....and this guy up here complaining about it just means he doesn't have the ability to read up on a game first or is just being critical for the opportunity to bitch about stuff. HE didn't like Breath of the Wild, said he didn't think Tears of the Kingdom looked great, then bought it anyway and is bitching about how it's not that special. Who does that? why would anyone do that? What could be gained from deliberately buying a game you don't think looks good AND is a sequel to a game you didn't like? IT sounds less like actual criticism and more like hipster talk, deliberately looking for reasons to bitch about the popular thing. 

I recognise that both GoW and BOTW are increadibly well made games. I'm not sure what everyone's definition of a masterpiece is, so I don't have much to add about that.

I don't neccesarily feel that I dislike some of these games as a whole either. At least I didn't get to that point in BOTW, as I only played for a few hours.
But I did force myself play through the entierty of GoW when I probably should have stopped earlier. I ended up liking the sequel a lot more, but got about halfway through it and then played something else.
(On the subject of buying a sequel to a game you didn't like, I didn't personally buy Ragnarok. My girlfriend bought it for herself, and we share PSN accounts. Perhaps the person above may have bought TOTK for his son that he mentioned?)

One factor is if a game looks interesting enough to make me want to try it. I can suspect that it's good and that I will like it, but if I have several other games waiting for me where I'm sure I'll have a good time, I'll play them "first" and then the cycle repeats itself.

And if I do try a game and the moments where I have fun are more spread out, or it doesn't compell me to turn on the power of my console when I'm not playing, then it's more a case of wanting to play something else that I feel will be more consistently fun for me. 

Also, relevant, if no one posted it yet:



Last edited by Hiku - on 15 May 2023

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Darashiva said:

This notion that everyone should just agree outright that BotW and TotK are both undeniable masterpieces and everyone who disagrees is wrong is a bit, well, creepy and concerning. I can't say anything about Tears of the Kingdom since I haven't played it, and I probably won't for a very long time still, but I never thought Breath of the Wild was a masterpiece. It's an excellent game, and one I enjoyed very much, but it's nowhere near the pedestal so many people have placed it on, in my opinion of course. I don't begrudge anyone who loves the game and considers it one of the greatest games ever made, but I also easily understand how others may not view it in a similar way.

I do think we should have critical discussions of the games but I don't think now is the time for that. The game is new people are enjoying it and want to talk to others that are enjoying it. It's a bit of a buzz kill having people that didn't even like botw coming in here immediately shitting all over the new one. Give it a few weeks let people finish the game and the hype to wear off and then get critical about it.

I think lack of critical discussions can really hurt communities on this site. For example the sony fanbase on here seems almost dead, very little activity or discussions and I think that is in large part due to some sony fans on this site becoming very aggressive when people criticise anything made by sony. The amount of times I've seen people called bigots for not liking certain games is ridiculous and extremely reductive. Sorry if this last paragraph is a bit off topic.



Muddle Buds - I like that they are in game, it's more or less Confusion spell, it gives you a tool to tackle the problem differently than heads on approach. What I didn't figured out so far is if monsters have anything akin to Wisdom/Will Saving Throw (to put it into D&D terminology) that will be checked in the background to decide if they are influenced by it?
Haven't get around to try it on all different enemies, but so far it seems all that I tried on were susceptible to it...any other experiences so far?



pikashoe said:
Darashiva said:

This notion that everyone should just agree outright that BotW and TotK are both undeniable masterpieces and everyone who disagrees is wrong is a bit, well, creepy and concerning. I can't say anything about Tears of the Kingdom since I haven't played it, and I probably won't for a very long time still, but I never thought Breath of the Wild was a masterpiece. It's an excellent game, and one I enjoyed very much, but it's nowhere near the pedestal so many people have placed it on, in my opinion of course. I don't begrudge anyone who loves the game and considers it one of the greatest games ever made, but I also easily understand how others may not view it in a similar way.

I do think we should have critical discussions of the games but I don't think now is the time for that. The game is new people are enjoying it and want to talk to others that are enjoying it. It's a bit of a buzz kill having people that didn't even like botw coming in here immediately shitting all over the new one. Give it a few weeks let people finish the game and the hype to wear off and then get critical about it.

I think lack of critical discussions can really hurt communities on this site. For example the sony fanbase on here seems almost dead, very little activity or discussions and I think that is in large part due to some sony fans on this site becoming very aggressive when people criticise anything made by sony. The amount of times I've seen people called bigots for not liking certain games is ridiculous and extremely reductive. Sorry if this last paragraph is a bit off topic.

I don't think a game being new should exclude critical discussion, as that's the time when most people are playing it and when you can have the most active discussions about it. As I mentioned, I can't really say anything about TotK as I haven't played it, but other people's criticism of a game should in no way influence anybody's enjoyment of said game. Obviously, if those criticisms are made in bad faith and with no basis, then it's fine to ignore them, but I don't like the idea of disregarding someone's negative opinion simply because other people may not agree with it.

Besides, if somebody else's less positive views on a game affects other's enjoyment of it, then those people never had a very strong faith in their own opinion to begin with.



Haven’t bought this yet. Currently playing Advance Wars Reboot Camp. And then it’s xenoblade 3 future redeemed. I play Totk after that



I am a Nintendo fanatic.

The problem with a lot of the criticism from those who didn’t find BOTW and now TOTK not to their liking is that the angle they're coming from is a lot of the time is either subjective or an individual issue like how they play or what appeals to them while the central praise for the two games is often for it's emergent freedom which has objective aspects to it that can't be argued. No game offers the level of it in one package, you don't have to like it but understand that it not appealing to you or you not utilising it is not really a criticism against what the game is mainly praise for it's just more down to the individual.

Last edited by Wyrdness - on 14 May 2023