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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft Research shows off IllumiRoom Xbox project at CES 2013

Libara on 10 January 2013

Looks interesting, would love to see what a game like Alan Wake could do with that.



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xstonexcold316x on 10 January 2013

This looks really cool, HOWEVER there is one thing that is jarring to me.. i don't like that how there is the screen on the FPS's and then the level around it, it shows the ground, but you have no body at the point under the TV, its just your hands and your gun, then space, the the ground in the game.. idk just seemed weird to me.

It does look really cool and I'd love to see what developers could do with this tech! I wanna play like LA Noire or something like a detective game with the clues all spread out on the walls :p



SvennoJ on 10 January 2013
kain_kusanagi said:
thismeintiel said:

This could be pretty cool, though, if you're going to stick to one wall, it should only be used for projecting special effects.  Like the lasers, snow, and fire coming off the edge of the screen.  It definitely shouldn't be used to make the background larger, as the gamplay is still happening onscreen, so it's distracting. 

If I had to be completely honest, I prefer a full room one.


That only works from the studio camera's angle. The guy on the couch saw everything from the wrong angle. It was probably very disorienting. It's little more than a cool tech demo with no imediate practical use while Microsoft is showing what they want to do with a real Xbox and their video shows it working with no camera tricks.

It's the same technique. The Microsoft demo won't look right either if you move away from the camera position.
It has to be calculated in 3D space for the spot from where you view it, unless Kinect is going to track you and adjust the projection in real time it's not going to work if you move around alot.

3D video mapping has been used since 2007 by VJs and advertising campaigns (projections on buildings). The innovative part here is that Kinect can scan the environment to do the 3D mapping and extending the tv picture is pretty cool. I guess the actual scanning will be more involved then the video shows, it would at least need to test the full color range to figure out the specific reflective properties of all the surfaces.

Here are some of the best video mapping demos:
http://www.thecoolist.com/when-buildings-come-alive-10-unreal-urban-projection-videos/
It works better with buildings, bigger view area from where it looks right and the surface is relatively flat from the view distance. You only need upwards of $400k worth of 30k lumen projectors :)



Adinnieken on 10 January 2013
SvennoJ said:

It's the same technique. The Microsoft demo won't look right either if you move away from the camera position.
It has to be calculated in 3D space for the spot from where you view it, unless Kinect is going to track you and adjust the projection in real time it's not going to work if you move around alot.

3D video mapping has been used since 2007 by VJs and advertising campaigns (projections on buildings). The innovative part here is that Kinect can scan the environment to do the 3D mapping and extending the tv picture is pretty cool. I guess the actual scanning will be more involved then the video shows, it would at least need to test the full color range to figure out the specific reflective properties of all the surfaces.

Here are some of the best video mapping demos:
http://www.thecoolist.com/when-buildings-come-alive-10-unreal-urban-projection-videos/
It works better with buildings, bigger view area from where it looks right and the surface is relatively flat from the view distance. You only need upwards of $400k worth of 30k lumen projectors :)

Kinect isn't used to track you.  I suppose it could, in the future, but the purpose of Kinect is to determine the layout of the room.  With the room, and everything measured in it, an image is created that is sent to the projector so that when projected the image is correctly displayed.



Mistershine on 11 January 2013
SvennoJ said:
kain_kusanagi said:
SvennoJ said:
 

Well I don't have shades on the windows near the tv (nor on the glass picture frames), nor would it work on the dark cloth grills of the speaker towers. But sure for effects it would be pretty cool, depending on price, size and flexibility in placement of the projector.

There must be a pretty powerful lamp in that projector to cover the whole room like that while projecting onto surfaces not made for projection. I guess for motion effects you can get away with a 800x600 2700 Lumens BenQ MS502 with a special wide angle lens. That would set you back about $330 for the projector.

It's probably much cheaper tech than even that. It doens't have to be high contrast or high lumens. It just needs to get color out there so you can experience motion and effects in a more ambient fashion.

It's not trying to be the holodeck.

BTW. Doesn't the sunlight coming through your window during the day ruin your ambience while playing games. I have a nice big window next to my gaming TV and when I play during the day I pull the shades.

I have kids, no ambience while playing during the day anyway :)

It does have to be high lumens though, and 2700 is not very high for spreading it over such a big area. I use 1100 ansi lumens on a 92" screen and the room has to be almost completely dark with a good screen to project on. (no go in the living room)
If that tv in the video is 42", it is projecting at about 140", that's 2.3 times the surface area of 92", or 2500 ansi lumens to work in total darkness. That video might be unaltered, but there must be a pretty powerful projector behind that to be able to capture it on video at the same brightness as the tv with the ambient light level in that room.

Maybe they can build a cheap 480p projector with a standardized lamp for mass production. It won't look as good as in that video but should still give some nice effects.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Multimedia-Pocket-Cinema-Projector/dp/B009SIN0I4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1357895225&sr=8-5

Something like this would be ideal. It doesn't need to be powerful or high res to put spots/lines of colour on a wall.



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SvennoJ on 11 January 2013
Mistershine said:
SvennoJ said:

It does have to be high lumens though, and 2700 is not very high for spreading it over such a big area. I use 1100 ansi lumens on a 92" screen and the room has to be almost completely dark with a good screen to project on. (no go in the living room)
If that tv in the video is 42", it is projecting at about 140", that's 2.3 times the surface area of 92", or 2500 ansi lumens to work in total darkness. That video might be unaltered, but there must be a pretty powerful projector behind that to be able to capture it on video at the same brightness as the tv with the ambient light level in that room.

Maybe they can build a cheap 480p projector with a standardized lamp for mass production. It won't look as good as in that video but should still give some nice effects.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Multimedia-Pocket-Cinema-Projector/dp/B009SIN0I4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1357895225&sr=8-5

Something like this would be ideal. It doesn't need to be powerful or high res to put spots/lines of colour on a wall.

That's not going to show anything on a 140" diagonal, those things are 100 lumen or less.
A low res LED projector is much better for a reasonable price. At 2000 lumens you should be able to get some decent effects at 140" diagonal.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HTP-HD-Projector-Model-LED-66-2000-LUMENS-Max-50000-Lamp-Hours-Support-1080p-/300816368392?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item460a0d8308
480p native, 2000 lumens for $220. You only need a short throw lens to get to 140". (Those lenses aren't cheap btw)

I'm positive though that that video was shot with a 4000 lumen projector.



binary solo on 11 January 2013
zero129 said:
binary solo said:
Yeah, no. I don't think this one's for me. All the best for those who want to get into it though.

Yeah lets wait for Sony to do it , be cool then

Isn't that how it works?



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

disolitude on 12 January 2013
SvennoJ said:
Mistershine said:
SvennoJ said:
 

It does have to be high lumens though, and 2700 is not very high for spreading it over such a big area. I use 1100 ansi lumens on a 92" screen and the room has to be almost completely dark with a good screen to project on. (no go in the living room)
If that tv in the video is 42", it is projecting at about 140", that's 2.3 times the surface area of 92", or 2500 ansi lumens to work in total darkness. That video might be unaltered, but there must be a pretty powerful projector behind that to be able to capture it on video at the same brightness as the tv with the ambient light level in that room.

Maybe they can build a cheap 480p projector with a standardized lamp for mass production. It won't look as good as in that video but should still give some nice effects.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Multimedia-Pocket-Cinema-Projector/dp/B009SIN0I4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1357895225&sr=8-5

Something like this would be ideal. It doesn't need to be powerful or high res to put spots/lines of colour on a wall.

That's not going to show anything on a 140" diagonal, those things are 100 lumen or less.
A low res LED projector is much better for a reasonable price. At 2000 lumens you should be able to get some decent effects at 140" diagonal.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HTP-HD-Projector-Model-LED-66-2000-LUMENS-Max-50000-Lamp-Hours-Support-1080p-/300816368392?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item460a0d8308
480p native, 2000 lumens for $220. You only need a short throw lens to get to 140". (Those lenses aren't cheap btw)

I'm positive though that that video was shot with a 4000 lumen projector.

I recently tried this one on an 80 inch screen and it looks wonderful.

http://www.amazon.com/BenQ-W710ST-Short-Theater-Projector/dp/B006ISZM2E/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1358032400&sr=8-15&keywords=benq+3d+projector

For something like this Microsoft demo, and a 120+ inch screen I probably would want at least 3000 lumens though.



SvennoJ on 12 January 2013
disolitude said:
SvennoJ said:
Mistershine said:
SvennoJ said:
 

It does have to be high lumens though, and 2700 is not very high for spreading it over such a big area. I use 1100 ansi lumens on a 92" screen and the room has to be almost completely dark with a good screen to project on. (no go in the living room)
If that tv in the video is 42", it is projecting at about 140", that's 2.3 times the surface area of 92", or 2500 ansi lumens to work in total darkness. That video might be unaltered, but there must be a pretty powerful projector behind that to be able to capture it on video at the same brightness as the tv with the ambient light level in that room.

Maybe they can build a cheap 480p projector with a standardized lamp for mass production. It won't look as good as in that video but should still give some nice effects.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Multimedia-Pocket-Cinema-Projector/dp/B009SIN0I4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1357895225&sr=8-5

Something like this would be ideal. It doesn't need to be powerful or high res to put spots/lines of colour on a wall.

That's not going to show anything on a 140" diagonal, those things are 100 lumen or less.
A low res LED projector is much better for a reasonable price. At 2000 lumens you should be able to get some decent effects at 140" diagonal.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HTP-HD-Projector-Model-LED-66-2000-LUMENS-Max-50000-Lamp-Hours-Support-1080p-/300816368392?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item460a0d8308
480p native, 2000 lumens for $220. You only need a short throw lens to get to 140". (Those lenses aren't cheap btw)

I'm positive though that that video was shot with a 4000 lumen projector.

I recently tried this one on an 80 inch screen and it looks wonderful.

http://www.amazon.com/BenQ-W710ST-Short-Theater-Projector/dp/B006ISZM2E/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1358032400&sr=8-15&keywords=benq+3d+projector

For something like this Microsoft demo, and a 120+ inch screen I probably would want at least 3000 lumens though.

Yeah at least 3000 if ambient lighting is involved.

I was trying to find a cheap $200 alternative to get some effects showing in a 140" diagonal area like in the video.
That BenQ you linked gives off 64 fL at 80" which is a pretty bright image, more then sufficient to show detail on irregular walls with ambient lighting, and enough to compete with the tv for attention.
A 4000 lumen projector (BenQ SH910) at 140" diagonal comes in at 56 fL, a litle less then the W710ST at 80", should still be sufficient for what that video shows. At 2000 you're down to 31 fL, doable in a completely dark room if you lower the brightness of the tv.

For comparison the SMPTE recommendation for movie theatre screens is 16 fL. I'm not sure how much worse light shows on the average wall, but I guess double that should be a good start for a completely dark room.

Anyway for all we know they could have used an BenQ SH-960 5500 Lumen projector or a laser projector to make that video look good.
A fun proof of concept video, but too expensive for the average living room setup.

Shelf it for when laser projectors come down in price, that removes the problem with focus and difficult setup as well.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/lg-hecto-100in-laser-tv-projector_Projector_review
Now that is short throw :)



disolitude on 13 January 2013
SvennoJ said:

 

Yeah at least 3000 if ambient lighting is involved.

I was trying to find a cheap $200 alternative to get some effects showing in a 140" diagonal area like in the video.
That BenQ you linked gives off 64 fL at 80" which is a pretty bright image, more then sufficient to show detail on irregular walls with ambient lighting, and enough to compete with the tv for attention.
A 4000 lumen projector (BenQ SH910) at 140" diagonal comes in at 56 fL, a litle less then the W710ST at 80", should still be sufficient for what that video shows. At 2000 you're down to 31 fL, doable in a completely dark room if you lower the brightness of the tv.

For comparison the SMPTE recommendation for movie theatre screens is 16 fL. I'm not sure how much worse light shows on the average wall, but I guess double that should be a good start for a completely dark room.

Anyway for all we know they could have used an BenQ SH-960 5500 Lumen projector or a laser projector to make that video look good.
A fun proof of concept video, but too expensive for the average living room setup.

Shelf it for when laser projectors come down in price, that removes the problem with focus and difficult setup as well.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/lg-hecto-100in-laser-tv-projector_Projector_review
Now that is short throw :)

Too short if you ask me. I mount all my projectors on the ceiling and this LG would have to be way too close for a 80-90 inch picture. I bet the picture is beutiful and for a 120+ inch picture, that LG would be hard to beat. Love the no bulb to change aspect too...

To be honest, I am perfectly fine if this technology becomes an enthusiast kind of thing. The harder to set up the better... I need cool things like this to make my friends jelous when the come over.  :) However Microsoft is the wrong company for that type of niche product as they only release products with mass market potential. I guess we will see how this one plays out...