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Forums - Politics Discussion - How would America handle socialistic programs being shut down?

KungKras said:
HappySqurriel said:
KungKras said:
Would lead to more desperate people, more homeless people, slums, skyrocketing crime rates.... just off the top of my head.

I suggest you investigate the world of the 1950s and compare that to your assumptions ... It had a tiny fraction of the social programs we have today and a far lower incidence of the problems you fear.

It also had an excellent and well-funded education system among other things.

I'll get back to it. I'll have to find a place to read about exactly how policy looked in the 50's.

The difference is that people really didn't care about the poor or pay them much heed before Johnson and the Great Society. "The Other America" i think the book was called.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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KungKras said:
HappySqurriel said:
KungKras said:
Would lead to more desperate people, more homeless people, slums, skyrocketing crime rates.... just off the top of my head.

I suggest you investigate the world of the 1950s and compare that to your assumptions ... It had a tiny fraction of the social programs we have today and a far lower incidence of the problems you fear.

It also had an excellent and well-funded education system among other things.

I'll get back to it. I'll have to find a place to read about exactly how policy looked in the 50's.

The problem with education isn't lack of funding

 

If you want to understand why America has a failing education system consider the following story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/kristof-profiting-from-a-childs-illiteracy.html?ref=opinion&_r=2&#h[]

"... parents here in Appalachian hill country pulling their children out of literacy classes. Moms and dads fear that if kids learn to read, they are less likely to qualify for a monthly check for having an intellectual disability."

Essentially, the welfare system is set up to reward and subsidize failure, and yet supporters of this moronic system are still surprised that kids are failing.



Thats like asking what happens when you take candy away from a three year old. It would result in a lot of temper tantrums... Probably better to just let the three year have the candy... Deal with the problem another day...



HappySqurriel said:
KungKras said:
HappySqurriel said:
KungKras said:
Would lead to more desperate people, more homeless people, slums, skyrocketing crime rates.... just off the top of my head.

I suggest you investigate the world of the 1950s and compare that to your assumptions ... It had a tiny fraction of the social programs we have today and a far lower incidence of the problems you fear.

It also had an excellent and well-funded education system among other things.

I'll get back to it. I'll have to find a place to read about exactly how policy looked in the 50's.

The problem with education isn't lack of funding

 

If you want to understand why America has a failing education system consider the following story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/kristof-profiting-from-a-childs-illiteracy.html?ref=opinion&_r=2&#h[]

"... parents here in Appalachian hill country pulling their children out of literacy classes. Moms and dads fear that if kids learn to read, they are less likely to qualify for a monthly check for having an intellectual disability."

Essentially, the welfare system is set up to reward and subsidize failure, and yet supporters of this moronic system are still surprised that kids are failing.


Thats a terrible graph, because money is the problem.  Its funny that your graph starts in the 70s because that is the decade that the government started imposing regulations on schools.  They demanded a special education program and said they would fund half but only funded 10%.  Demanded kids had to stay in school till a certain age.  Stuff like that.  The scores is also stupid as tests have evolved and become more demanding over the years.  If a kid back then took a test from today, they would do a lot worse.

basically, the schools today have to do a lot more then they had to.  I am a school teacher and did you know almost half our budget goes just to special education?  Not saying we should do away with special education, it is valuable, but it has never been properly paid for...



gergroy said:


Thats a terrible graph, because money is the problem.  Its funny that your graph starts in the 70s because that is the decade that the government started imposing regulations on schools.  They demanded a special education program and said they would fund half but only funded 10%.  Demanded kids had to stay in school till a certain age.  Stuff like that.  The scores is also stupid as tests have evolved and become more demanding over the years.  If a kid back then took a test from today, they would do a lot worse.

basically, the schools today have to do a lot more then they had to.  I am a school teacher and did you know almost half our budget goes just to special education?  Not saying we should do away with special education, it is valuable, but it has never been properly paid for...

 

From my understanding, I think you have it backwards ... Take away a calculator and have your best high-school math student do a test from the 1950s, I'm positive he will struggle to get a passing mark; and probably won't come close to finishing the test in time. Without a calculator students can't do basic arithmitec, without a word processor students can't write an essay, and without the internet students can't write a basic research paper anymore.

 

With that said, I think the primary problems with the school system is lack of discipline and lack of accountability of students; and the protection of incompetent teachers by the union.



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gergroy said:
Thats like asking what happens when you take candy away from a three year old. It would result in a lot of temper tantrums... Probably better to just let the three year have the candy... Deal with the problem another day...


I would argue it is much more like asking "what happens when you stop enabling a crack addict" ... certainly there will be a temper tantrum but you will make it far more likely that they will "hit rock bottom" and actually question the decisions that are ruining their lives.



bouzane said:
spurgeonryan said:

Everyone says they are sick of paying for the poor, elderly, insane, etc. But how would this country deal with these programs being closed down? Not even automatically. Lets say over a five year time period.

 

Clinton greatly reduced dependence on Welfare in America during his second term in office. The country is still here. Now Medicare is being cut, and America is struggling to afford other programs. Would everything be alright if 90%-100% of socialistic programs were shut down?

 

Maybe we should? Better than cutting defense. Other countries are just biding their time for when we do. Guarrantee it!


Incorrect. America's defense spending is exorbitantly high and the industrial-military complex is interfering with the democratic process. America's defense industry, per dollar, is one of the least efficient in the world. Hell, we shouldn't even be calling it defense spending as much of this revenue is being used to destabilize other regions which simply worsens America's international image while providing their enemies (namely militant Muslims) opportunities to recruit and expand.

That being said, I believe that dependencies should also be cut (although not in the same fashion as Bill Clinton's disastrous cuts to welfare). I am an anarcho-communist and although that system can hardly be implemented in America, I believe that they teach us an important lesson about productivity. All able bodied individuals should be provided suitable, gainful employment without undercutting the existing job market. Frown on it all you want but those on welfare should be treated as employees of the public sector.


Actually, as a percentage of GDP our military spending isn't so bad.  Espiecally when you consider it brings back returns in the form of military sales to other countries.

 

 

I don't think companies are "biding their time" but our military spending in a lot of ways actually benefits us quite a bit.  The sad part is, cuts in military funding always seem to target the helpful programs like research and not the bullshit.



If you suggest killing welfare without anything else changing, you're going to have a lot of people starving to death.

First of all, you need to introduce free markets into the likes of food, healthcare, mortgages, to massively reduce prices in these areas. You then need to ramp up the drive for employment by reducing the costs: cutting regulations, taxes, and minimum wage.

This will allow wages to fall to the market clearing rate, as well as having other costs falling to allow for an increase in the standard of living on low-income earners.

By this point, you could cut welfare with very little short term pain.

---

If you were to eliminate welfare now with none of this, it'd still be better in the long run. But I will accept it would have a large cost in the short term.



This country needs to cut everything... But we won't.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Sure, I don't see why not.


It has worked for many other civilized countries.

and now they are not civilized any more



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’