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Forums - Politics Discussion - NYT: Let’s Give Up on the Constitution

KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:
bouzane said:
KylieDog said:
bouzane said:
KylieDog said:

 

 

 


Weren't Germany and Italy developed nations when the fascists seized power? Want a more recent example, how about Yugoslavia? Sorry but saying "not here, not now" doesn't make the problem go away. No offense but your belief that the public should disarm and hand all power over to an increasingly corrupt government is absolutely ludicrous.


Wait, what about Yugoslavia ?


Yugoslavia and Nazi Germany are just like the present day USA, didn't you know.

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.



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@KylieDog

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Edmund Burke

This doesn't simply mean that you can memorize and recite historical facts. You need to be able to take things in context and apply the lessons taught. No corner of this Earth is immune from the effects of corruption and internal division. No nation is immune to major global crises or the will of the banks. America is an increasingly divided country with a rapidly worsening debt problem that is showing all of the hallmarks of a major upheaval. I don't even need to bring up the fact that America relies on nations such as China and Russia for vital resources. What would happen if they faced a catastrophe or even declared war on America and her allies? What would happen to the already unstable nation? It may not end with a revolution or fascist-corporatist regime but things aren't going to be perfect forever, that is simply impossible.

To those who refuse to learn from history, to those who would bury their heads in the sand. What does lying to yourself accomplish? What does ignorance accomplish? What does a complete lack of preparation accomplish? Why place so much blind faith and trust in a government that does not necessarily have your best interests at heart? Do you realize that without any vigilance against tyranny that you enable it?

Also, LOL at your almost complete lack of a proper rebuttal. I will take this as an admission that gun prohibition would be impossible to implement and of no real benefit. Finally, care to prove how modern day America is unique and without any similarity to Germany before the rise of Hitler or Italy before the rise of Mussolini? Care to prove how America is so unlike Yugoslavia prior to the Yugoslav Wars?

Saying things like "it can not happen here, not in the modern day" doesn't make it true. America is no different. Go ahead and live in a fantasy world, it'll get you killed one of these days. Wake up, open your eyes and recognize the very real dangers that exist in the developed world.



@Player1x3

I brought up Yugoslavia because there are many pertinent lessons to be learned from the collapse of that country.

Even though Yugoslavia was a proper communist republic (with the people actually managing their own factories through collectivized labor) there were still many similarities to other developed nations such as the USA, Britain, etc... They had open borders as Tito didn't need to worry about out-migration due to his somewhat moderate and neutral policies and as a result, many traveled and worked abroad and the state benefited from the remittances. They had free health care, a great life expectancy, quality education and an overall high quality of living. Tito established an obtrusive nanny/police state in an effort to curb nationalism and maintain order (albeit slightly more aggressive in hunting down political dissidents than modern day America). Overall it was a stable and prosperous nation despite racial divisions.

However, things started to change with the oil crisis of the 70's as it resulted in Yugoslavia borrowing significant amounts of money and implementing liberal capitalist reforms. This led to a ballooning debt problem and rising unemployment. The Reagan administration saw an opportunity to destabilize the region and pushed for trade barriers which exacerbated their existing problems. Another round of loans were taken out with the IMF and they soon found themselves with a whole host of food and power shortages as well as unpayable debt and an unemployment rate that hovered around 15 percent. This stoked the existing nationalist divisions leading to the Yugoslav Wars which saw the deaths of over 130,000 people and the utter collapse of the republic.

A textbook example of how a developed, modern nation can unravel.



Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?



Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?

You'd have to read the whole argument from the beginning there is a line of reasoning that goes : guns protect from tyranny -> but the U.S is a developed first would country, and hence will not have tyranny -> look at Nazi Germany and Yugoslavia, both had tyranny and democide, and were developed -> ....



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sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?

You'd have to read the whole argument from the beginning there is a line of reasoning that goes : guns protect from tyranny -> but the U.S is a developed first would country, and hence will not have tyranny -> look at Nazi Germany and Yugoslavia, both had tyranny and democide, and were developed -> ....


There was no tyranny in Yugoslavia. People loved Tito



Player1x3 said:
sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?

You'd have to read the whole argument from the beginning there is a line of reasoning that goes : guns protect from tyranny -> but the U.S is a developed first would country, and hence will not have tyranny -> look at Nazi Germany and Yugoslavia, both had tyranny and democide, and were developed -> ....


There was no tyranny in Yugoslavia. People loved Tito

That doesn't mean there wasn't tyranny. People loved Hitler too. ;) Tyranny just means absolute power in the hands of a state. 



sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?

You'd have to read the whole argument from the beginning there is a line of reasoning that goes : guns protect from tyranny -> but the U.S is a developed first would country, and hence will not have tyranny -> look at Nazi Germany and Yugoslavia, both had tyranny and democide, and were developed -> ....


There was no tyranny in Yugoslavia. People loved Tito

That doesn't mean there wasn't tyranny. People loved Hitler too. ;) Tyranny just means absolute power in the hands of a state. 


No, that's dictatorship.  In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of an oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls. Hitler fits this description better than Tito. And Yugoslavia was probably more liberal and democratic than most, if not all communist countries.



Player1x3 said:
sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
sc94597 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
KylieDog said:
Player1x3 said:

Look at his profile home country... your mistaking his arguement.

His arguement is that nothing bad happened in yugoslavia, everyone in Kosovo are terrorists and they did all the ethnic cleansing, not the serbians.


How did you come to that conclusion lol? What does kosovo have to do with gun ban?

You'd have to read the whole argument from the beginning there is a line of reasoning that goes : guns protect from tyranny -> but the U.S is a developed first would country, and hence will not have tyranny -> look at Nazi Germany and Yugoslavia, both had tyranny and democide, and were developed -> ....


There was no tyranny in Yugoslavia. People loved Tito

That doesn't mean there wasn't tyranny. People loved Hitler too. ;) Tyranny just means absolute power in the hands of a state. 


No, that's dictatorship.  In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of an oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls. Hitler fits this description better than Tito. And Yugoslavia was probably more liberal and democratic than most, if not all communist countries.

While your definition is ONE definition, it's not the only one nor the one that is used in political philosophy, but the one used in colloquial language - as you noted. This definition is its original definition used by ancient Greeks. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tyrant 

: an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution

a usurper of sovereignty

This is the relevant definiton to the current discussion, because we are discussing the sovereignty of the United States and comparing it to the sovereignty of other developed countries, historically.



Mr Khan said:

I'd argue that people who both claim this and own a gun should be vigorously investigated.

This mindset is exactly why one shouldn't register his guns.