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Forums - Politics Discussion - Gun control debate issues that bother me. Will Libertarians and Republicans please address these?

betacon said:
sc94597 said:
betacon said:

 to get a knife licence in Australia,

 

Holy crap, one needs a license to own (or carry?) a knife in Australia? It does tell me something, but not what it told you. 


Yes you can't cary even a pocketknife into public and to purchase a knife you need a license which you still can't bring into a public area, yes this is over the top "nanny state" both between Australia and America there's middle ground .

The problem is that there is always a "middle ground" It reminds me of Zeno's paradox and how one might seemingly never reach their destination if they keep moving half the distance they moved before, but essentially the sum of the limit of each adds up to a finite number. So with each "compromise" we get closer and closer to that nanny state, and it only remains a nanny state when it's benevolent, otherwise it turns totalitarian. No thank you! I value freedom very much, and invidual liberties are very important for living a "good life" albeit not necessarily a totally safe one. However; these idealisms always lead to dissapointment and often ruin (substantiated by history.) Hence, when it comes to individual liberties there is no compromise which deals with the state's involvement. Compromise must be within the society, which is a separate and distinct entity from the state and which has a different origin and different values. The state is meant to protect our liberties as long as they don't intrude upon the liberties and freedoms of others. Hence, lawful citizens should be able to own what they want. There ARE other solutions, and it is clear with the diversity found among the various states in the U.S, in which many have many guns but few homicides. 



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Kasz216 said:
Lafiel said:
Marks said:
If we take guns away from citizens...it gives way more power to both police/government as well as criminals/cartels.

I just want my safety in my hands, not in the hands of the police. There is only so much the police can do, there are more criminals than cops out there.

Also guns prevent tyranny. Like imagine a Hitler type character takes power and wants to genocide every white person in America...well good fucking luck with that buddy, it would take an entire army to take down the good old boys down south. Imagine if the Jews in Europe were even half as well armed as Americans are today...they would have fended off genocide and been able to revolt.

Anyone who says we don't need guns to protect us from tyranny is a FUCKING IDIOT. Every genocide that has ever happened has been in a place where there is gun control against citizens. If it can happen in a first world place like Germany then why not America (if guns were taken away)?

yea, if native americans had had guns they might not have suffered genocide by european settlers

If they had more guns it certaintly would of helped stopping that.  However actually Native American's were on a HUGE decline before we ever even got there.

Little known fact but Native American populations used to be so large that some climate scientists think that it was their development of North America that caused the medievil warming period, as they deforested too much of North America causes an increase in global temperatures.

The vikings and I think a couple other civilizations tried to settle America way before then and the Native Americans kicked there ass.

By the time the English and French got there they had been horribly wiped out by some great plague or another, and settlers were shocked at how there just seemed to be huge swarths of land that were just made for settlement. (but empty.)

 

The Native American populations had died off due to great diseases as well as droughts... caused by their own rapid deforestation of North America.

Wow, where do you get your information from because that's the complete opposite of everything that actually happened.

And the vikings never tried to inhabit America, they were the first pirates of the day, travel from place to place killing and looting and then taken their prizes back home.



Mmmfishtacos said:

Wow, where do you get your information from because that's the complete opposite of everything that actually happened.

And the vikings never tried to inhabit America, they were the first pirates of the day, travel from place to place killing and looting and then taken their prizes back home.


It's ironic how you criticize somebody for questioning history, but then also provide a fallacious statement. Vikings (or the Norse rather) DID settle places. Look up where the name "Rus" in Russia came from and look up the history of the country of Iceland. 



JWeinCom said:
HappySqurriel said:
A question I would want answered with gun control is "What do you want to achieve?" and follow that up with "How does eliminating guns achieve that?" ...

If someone has the intent to do harm and is ready to break the law to accomplish that banning guns won't prevent them from doing harm; because they will probably be able to get an illegal gun, and even if they can't they could find some other way (bomb, kinfe, car, etc.) to do the harm they want.


In Israel they had a problem with soldiers commiting suicide via gunshot.  They changed military policy so that guns were not kept at home with the soldiers, but on base.  The rate of suicide via gunshot fell significantly.  The rate of suicide by strangulation rose slightly.  Overall suicide among soldiers fell significantly. 

Of course, the suicidal soldiers could have easily found other methods to off themselves, and some did.  But, the lack of easy access to guns brought down the suicide rate.  Putting an extra step between the thought and the action had a meaningful impact. 

Making it more difficult to get the gun adds several steps between thought and deed, adds more points at which suspicion can arise and the would be killer would be caught, and could conceivably alter the type of weapon that is used, possibly decreasing overall impact.

no guns in Japan, must be why they have such low suicide rates there.... oh wait.



JWeinCom said:
snyps said:
JWeinCom said:
scat398 said:
I am curious to know why liberals believe banning guns will end shooting sprees or help eliminate gun death rates in inner cities? We know that making something illegal doesn't make it go away ( seriously we all understand this right)?

So if we understand that making it illegal doesn't work why is that the topic of msm and democratic politicians? I wonder if it is because they believe that removing the guns will help remove part of our fascination with them? Any liberally minded people out there that can give me a response I'd like to hear the thought process on the other side of the coin.

You make a pretty big jump from that first to second paragraph.  Suddenly you go from "doesn't make it go away" to completely ineffective.

We ban rape.  Do we ban it because if we do nobody will rape anyone ever again?  No, but it will reduce the amount of rape that happens.  Same principle here.  Won't eliminate it completely, but could very well limit these types of incidents.

Take the recent shooting.  We have a guy with mental problems who had access to his mom's guns in the house.  So, what if there weren't guns in the house.  Would he have been able to obtain them through illegitimate means?  Without people who know him getting suspicious? Stricter gun control would have certainly made the weapons harder to maintain, and the harder it is to get from idea to action the less likely it is to happen.

Banning rape is banning behavior.. Prohibiting weapons is prohibition of objects.  As we all know prohibition doesn't work.  And as you pointed out mental condition is the-problem. (specifically psychiatric dope). Why you choose prohibition instead of reinstating the useoff mental hospitals is perverse IMO.  Every shooting spree had psychiatric drugs being forced on the killer 

 

Well I wouldn't expect to change anyone's mind.  Something to think about. 


We all know prohibition doesn't work?  Not really.  We know alcohol prohibition didn't work, but that doesn't mean that no form of prohibition will ever work.  Besides, few people are advocating for a complete ban on guns, but more intelligent policies on how we screen/what kinds of clips are available etc.

I chose to address gun laws because someone asked that question.  Treatment of mental disorders is absolutely another facet of this issue that should be looked into.  That being said, completely ignoring the gun aspect of the equation means leaving a large part of the problem completely unaddressed.

 


Name one prohibition of an object that worked and didnt finance organized crime.  You can't. Prohibition doesn't work.  Even if it's a prohibition on half the gun types it's still prohibition and it will finance criminals.

 

Mental disorders is the only issue that solves the problem and protects our right to defend liberty.



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richardhutnik said:
sc94597 said:
The NRA aren't for the Second Amendment, to be honest. They're for making money. So many times have they "compromised" on gun control legislation because they had got a deal out of it. GOA (Gun Owners of America) are much better. As for the solution, it has to do with these "free-gun zones" and their removal. At least give the schools a choice so the criminals don't know which is a "free-gun zone" and which is not. As for video game control, that is a violation of the first amendment, and equally intrusive as gun-control. The solution isn't a federal one, it's a state/local one and one rooted in the people.

@richardhutnik Why isn't arming teachers a sufficient solution? Back when teachers (AND STUDENTS in Middle/High school) were armed these things didn't happen. Kids brought their rifles to school when my great-grandmother was a young girl. They would go hunting afterwards or practice target shooting in their physical education class.

Did problems with guns in school occur before or after they decided to create gun free zones?  There are reasons why schools ended up having gun free zones.  You have teenagers who lose control, get in an argument, pull out and gun and shoot someone.  Have guns about and not only that, but you will end up gunning down people who had nothing to do with the incident.

As for arming teachers, is it going to be a requirement that teachers in school also be competent shots with the gun, and carry them?  And if so, are teachers going to be paid more money to pay for their own ammo, and guns?  Or will there a gun locker in the principle's office where the teachers check them out and return them at the end of the day, and what money would be available for this?

That sounds like a giant assumption on your point... you don't know why schools are gun free zones, nor is anybody talkin about arming students, who I don't think can even legally own guns

Additionally, there aren't many, if any cases of people gunning down others who had nothing to do with th incidient in concealed carry states.  

 

As for arming teachers.  You don't have to FORCE teachers to arm.  Just give them the option.   The knowledge that some teachers will have guns wil stop some of these cases from every happening.



snyps said:

Name one prohibition of an object that worked and didnt finance organized crime.  You can't. Prohibition doesn't work.  Even if it's a prohibition on half the gun types it's still prohibition and it will finance criminals.

Mental disorders is the only issue that solves the problem and protects our right to defend liberty.

You have no idea how much is outlawed. 

How about carcinogenic products or those fluids that destroyed the ozone layer.



non-gravity said:
snyps said:

Name one prohibition of an object that worked and didnt finance organized crime.  You can't. Prohibition doesn't work.  Even if it's a prohibition on half the gun types it's still prohibition and it will finance criminals.

Mental disorders is the only issue that solves the problem and protects our right to defend liberty.

You have no idea how much is outlawed. 

How about carcinogenic products or those fluids that destroyed the ozone layer.

The difference is that those things aren't in demand and are replaceable. 



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sc94597 said:
non-gravity said:
snyps said:

Name one prohibition of an object that worked and didnt finance organized crime.  You can't. Prohibition doesn't work.  Even if it's a prohibition on half the gun types it's still prohibition and it will finance criminals.

Mental disorders is the only issue that solves the problem and protects our right to defend liberty.

You have no idea how much is outlawed. 

How about carcinogenic products or those fluids that destroyed the ozone layer.

The difference is that those things aren't in demand and are replaceable. 

We can't prove they are or are not in demand if they're not being sold because they're outlawed. And anything is replacable. I'm sensing another petitio principii