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Forums - Politics Discussion - Arm Yourself: The Ultimate Gun Factsheet

Mmmfishtacos on 20 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

This then plays into the anti-gun argument, however. If removing guns wouldn't change the big problems, then we should remove guns, because at least there would be less deaths by accident and self-defense.

I don't see how this playing in the the anit-gun argument. People are going to kill no matter what. At least the person trying to defend them selfs has a better shot with a gun than a knife. Accidental gun death is so low it's not worth worry about. The only way it would work is to disarm everyone one. Including the police and how do you suppose we do that? There are 12 guns to every man woman and child in the united states. Good luck with that.

So what else should we remove? Knives, cars, gas and fertilizers, bats and Nails, 100 prof alcohol and rags?

I outlined my alternative once before. A "no-fault" period for turning in all guns, and following that, mandatory jail terms if you're caught with a gun: 10 years and $10,000. Per gun.

So not only do you want to ban guns but you want to turn owning one into a felony? Remember how well prohibition went? Or even the prohibition of drugs is going? Did it stop anything? No it made it worse. Turing innocent gun owners to to felons over your 'no-fault" (over night)  period isn't going to work out to well. Do you want another civil war? Cause that's what you'll end up with. And not to mention it's goes against  our constitution, So maybe we should just ban that too. What other rights do you want to give up?



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Mr Khan on 20 December 2012
Panama said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

I'm assuming the study was also looking at the correlation between suicide numbers and gun usage, which is a pointless study as you yourself stated people that wish to commit suicide will do so either way and has absolutely nothing to do with gun usage.

The thing is, showing that Americans have a higher tendency for murder without guns doesn't necessarily support their gun laws either. The findings of this document just feel nihlistic at times as opposed to taking a real stance to support Americans gun laws. I also wasn't a fan of the lack of more recent statistics, this document was published in 2012 after all, you would think they would have more recent data for UK and Aus instead of just 2006 unless I misread it. Surely editing wouldn't take that long.

To be fair, it does often take statisticians a while to compile this census-y stuff.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan on 20 December 2012
Mmmfishtacos said:
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

This then plays into the anti-gun argument, however. If removing guns wouldn't change the big problems, then we should remove guns, because at least there would be less deaths by accident and self-defense.

I don't see how this playing in the the anit-gun argument. People are going to kill no matter what. At least the person trying to defend them selfs has a better shot with a gun than a knife. Accidental gun death is so low it's not worth worry about. The only way it would work is to disarm everyone one. Including the police and how do you suppose we do that? There are 12 guns to every man woman and child in the united states. Good luck with that.

So what else should we remove? Knives, cars, gas and fertilizers, bats and Nails, 100 prof alcohol and rags?

I outlined my alternative once before. A "no-fault" period for turning in all guns, and following that, mandatory jail terms if you're caught with a gun: 10 years and $10,000. Per gun.

So not only do you want to ban guns but you want to turn owning one into a felony? Remember how well prohibition went? Or even the prohibition of drugs is going? Did it stop anything? No it made it worse. Turing innocent gun owners to to felons over your 'no-fault" (over night)  period isn't going to work out to well. Do you want another civil war? Cause that's what you'll end up with. And not to mention it's goes against  our constitution, So maybe we should just ban that too. What other rights do you want to give up?

Of course it would have to come with a constitutional amendment.

Time burns away all absolutes, including the rights outlined in the Constitution. For instance, the definition of "speech" vis-a-vis the use of money.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mmmfishtacos on 20 December 2012
Panama said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

I'm assuming the study was also looking at the correlation between suicide numbers and gun usage, which is a pointless study as you yourself stated people that wish to commit suicide will do so either way and has absolutely nothing to do with gun usage.

The thing is, showing that Americans have a higher tendency for murder without guns doesn't necessarily support their gun laws either. The findings of this document just feel nihlistic at times as opposed to taking a real stance to support Americans gun laws. I also wasn't a fan of the lack of more recent statistics, this document was published in 2012 after all, you would think they would have more recent data for UK and Aus instead of just 2006 unless I misread it. Surely editing wouldn't take that long.


Well collecting data like that could take a long time. Plus if may not have been his job and by the amount of typos foud in the documet i can tell it's not his day job.



Panama on 20 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
Panama said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

I'm assuming the study was also looking at the correlation between suicide numbers and gun usage, which is a pointless study as you yourself stated people that wish to commit suicide will do so either way and has absolutely nothing to do with gun usage.

The thing is, showing that Americans have a higher tendency for murder without guns doesn't necessarily support their gun laws either. The findings of this document just feel nihlistic at times as opposed to taking a real stance to support Americans gun laws. I also wasn't a fan of the lack of more recent statistics, this document was published in 2012 after all, you would think they would have more recent data for UK and Aus instead of just 2006 unless I misread it. Surely editing wouldn't take that long.

To be fair, it does often take statisticians a while to compile this census-y stuff.

That's true. I just feel this document doesn't do the greatest job debunking a lot of these myths. It's just a really hard case to argue when America is consistently ranked as the highest developed country in the world for murders with firearms. Like I said earlier I don't believe strict gun laws will particularly resolve it. My qualm is purely with the document.



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killerzX on 20 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
 

 

and SamualRSmith and I have already debunked his claim. and if you were to read or understand anything you disagree with, you would know this already. this fact sheet did not equate murder and suicide, if you were to read it you would know this.

Also no America does not have the highest violent crime rate. not even close. making things up again, are we?

and the point of this fact sheet which you have demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of what it says, does not only correlate gun ownership with crime. it does point out though that banning guns =/= equal lower crime. and more guns=/= higher crime. stat after stat after stat proves this

I did read it. I didn't see any debunking going on on your part; you're equating one very different kind of death with another.

I would be willing to agree that a gun ban is not going to necessarily lower crime rates.

Part of it is that i feel guns are a categorical evil, like all weapons.

thats not what the fact sheet is doing. first its saying you cant really compare Japan and US. they are so different (this is cultural among other things) 

second even if you take away gun homocides, the US still has 3x the murder rate. their point guns dont equal high murder rates.

3rd: Japan has a very high suicide rate, even with out guns, proving US doesnt need guns to do so, and if we combine the rate US and Japan are about equal. 

really this is basic reading skills



Kasz216 on 20 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
killerzX said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Fine. Should've known the stuff left-wingers float around on facebook is just as ill-informed as the crap right-wingers float around.

The fact remains that this "fact sheet" is just as distorting as what i posted, however.


oh so you read it?

stop making things up. it adresses the complaints of statist/progressives/liberals. it doesnt have to distort facts and lie like the brady campaign and Mother jones do.

Pokoko already pointed out one of the piss-weak arguments in it, where it tries to "debunk" how Japan has a rock-bottom gun ownership rate and rock-bottom violent crime rate, by somehow equating suicide with murder

Other problems

The graph on page 6 generally shows a positive correlation between lower gun ownership rates and lower crime rates. America has the higest violent crime rate and highest gun ownership rate, and the only outlier here, for whatever reason, is Scotland. Everything else mirrors

They state that Switzerland has the same per-capita violent crime rate as England, and this is supposed to be a positive point in favor of Switzerland's high gun ownership rate (especially when gun nuts love to point at England and show how poor and helpless all those people are).

3: Correlation is not causation. They point to the year of the UK gun ban, but fail to address the possible effect of the recent immigration spike.

At best, all it does is prove that there isn't a positive correlation between violent crime and gun ownership

and SamualRSmith and I have already debunked his claim. and if you were to read or understand anything you disagree with, you would know this already. this fact sheet did not equate murder and suicide, if you were to read it you would know this.

Also no America does not have the highest violent crime rate. not even close. making things up again, are we?

and the point of this fact sheet which you have demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of what it says, does not only correlate gun ownership with crime. it does point out though that banning guns =/= equal lower crime. and more guns=/= higher crime. stat after stat after stat proves this

I did read it. I didn't see any debunking going on on your part; you're equating one very different kind of death with another.

I would be willing to agree that a gun ban is not going to necessarily lower crime rates.

Part of it is that i feel guns are a categorical evil, like all weapons.

 

Aren't you supposed to be a moral relativist?  Either way... I find this quote fun.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

 

 

 

Who said that?  Mahatma Gandhi.



the2real4mafol on 20 December 2012

I don't get it, you Americans are far too obsessed when it comes to your guns. 30 kids died because of how easy it is to get something that is designed to injure or kill.

Wherever you like it or not, what Obama is doing is the right thing to do. I don't know why people need an assault rifle like the AR-15 anyway, if you need a gun for "self-defense", just get a pistol or a baseball bat, that would work fine anyway. Screw the NRA!



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Mmmfishtacos on 20 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Mr Khan said:
Mmmfishtacos said:
Panama said:
I'm terribly sorry, but I laughed too hard at the garbage spewed in there. The Japanese Myth in particular almost made me fall out of my seat. IF YOU TAKE AWAY GUNS AMERICA STILL HAS 3 TIMES THE MURDER RATE (truly something to brag about) BUT LOOK AT JAPANS SUICIDE RATES. Sorry but this is non sequitur garbage and propaganda.

Though I am inclined with those that believe that America should not instil stricter gun laws, I just felt like pointing out that this document is bad and it should feel bad.


I think the whole point of that was just to show removing guns we would still have a high murder rate. In fact most of the gun murders would be replace with another weapon of choice. If someone wants to kill someone they are going to do it. If someone want to commit suicide they are going to do. Gun or not.

This then plays into the anti-gun argument, however. If removing guns wouldn't change the big problems, then we should remove guns, because at least there would be less deaths by accident and self-defense.

I don't see how this playing in the the anit-gun argument. People are going to kill no matter what. At least the person trying to defend them selfs has a better shot with a gun than a knife. Accidental gun death is so low it's not worth worry about. The only way it would work is to disarm everyone one. Including the police and how do you suppose we do that? There are 12 guns to every man woman and child in the united states. Good luck with that.

So what else should we remove? Knives, cars, gas and fertilizers, bats and Nails, 100 prof alcohol and rags?

I outlined my alternative once before. A "no-fault" period for turning in all guns, and following that, mandatory jail terms if you're caught with a gun: 10 years and $10,000. Per gun.

So not only do you want to ban guns but you want to turn owning one into a felony? Remember how well prohibition went? Or even the prohibition of drugs is going? Did it stop anything? No it made it worse. Turing innocent gun owners to to felons over your 'no-fault" (over night)  period isn't going to work out to well. Do you want another civil war? Cause that's what you'll end up with. And not to mention it's goes against  our constitution, So maybe we should just ban that too. What other rights do you want to give up?

Of course it would have to come with a constitutional amendment.

Time burns away all absolutes, including the rights outlined in the Constitution. For instance, the definition of "speech" vis-a-vis the use of money.

Then what happens if say, once china knows that our citizens are no longer armed. And want their money back. Our military isn't the only reason we haven't be invaded. I know it sounds funny. But it could happen without guns. Besides we are far from that day and age where we don't need guns. Do you know that one deer can feed a family of 4 for several months? So now you want to take that way too?



Kasz216 on 20 December 2012

Also by the way... the argument isn't so much that guns cause suicides.

It's that guns are more effective at killing you then most other common suicide methods.

You take pills or something, you have some time for an "oh shit!" moment to call 911.

Guns, they kill you right away.

Still, seems like a pretty piss poor reason for banning guns. It's like banning hard liquor because it's easier to drink yourself to death with it then beer.  (Then again i suppose that's why moonshine is illegal.  Also why moonshine is as popular as it is.)

 

It's also worth noting, that thanks to guns, the USA has a lot less "hot" home invasions. (1 in 10)  In otherwords, in the US it's VERY unlikely you will be robbed if someone is home.   Unlike most countries where it's fairly often.  (For example in the UK, 4 out of 10 robberies are hot.)

The reason why?   In the US, most criminals are actually more afraid of homeowners then they are the police.  As such in the US the VAST majority of crimes committed are by people who know you.

 

In the US, thanks to guns, you're really unlikely to be robbed unless somebody who wants to rob you knows your schedule and knows where you live.