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Forums - Politics - Arm Yourself: The Ultimate Gun Factsheet

johnsobas said:
the comparisons between countries are far too simplified on both sides of the argument. The comparison with Japan is almost laughable here. Yes, Japan will always be the safer country, and even if you made guns legal in Japan that would not change that fact. However I really don't understand the case that lifting the gun ban in Japan would be a good thing.

Different countries have different situations, and it's far more complicated than just high/low crime + gun ban/no gun ban. You can't ban guns in the US, it's just impossible. There's no point in even trying to do that. However I don't see any advantage to lifting the gun ban in Japan either, Japan doesn't have the same kind of problem that we have in the US. To take the point further, i would support legalizing drugs in America, at the very least there is no downside in legalizing pot. With that said, I see no reason to legalize drugs in Japan. Japan has very strict drug laws, and they don't have much trouble at all with drug usage. I don't credit that just to the laws, it's largely because of culture, but why would you change that? They don't have the same problems as the US.

Finally! Someone who can make a balanced post on the topic.



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"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: First, a right to life. Second, to liberty. Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature." - Samuel Adams in The Rights of the Colonists as Men.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person." - James Madison on the Amendments of the Constitution.

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …" - Samuel Adams

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." - Richard Henry Lee

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Patrick Henry

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … " - Thomas Jefferson

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson

It seems as if the founding fathers didn't only think it was a right to own a gun, but also a duty for any freeman who wants to remain free to own a gun and become educated in its use.










Mr Khan said:
Player1x3 said:
the2real4mafol said:
I don't get it, you Americans are far too obsessed when it comes to your guns. 30 kids died because of how easy it is to get something that is designed to injure or kill.

Wherever you like it or not, what Obama is doing is the right thing to do. I don't know why people need an assault rifle like the AR-15 anyway, if you need a gun for "self-defense", just get a pistol or a baseball bat, that would work fine anyway. Screw the NRA!


So you just ignore all the facts in the document, shut your ears and yell the usual left wing holier than thou crap despite the facts?

The facts in the document are specious at best. I would go so far as to call them usual right-wing pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

Oh then go ahead and dispute them. It's not like you've been proven wrong multiple times before in this thread.



Kasz216 said:

 

Aren't you supposed to be a moral relativist?  Either way... I find this quote fun.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

 

 

 

Who said that?  Mahatma Gandhi.

Fun it may be, but I'm not sure it's really relevant.

The quote represents part of Ghandi's 'recruitment pitch' to Indian civilians (the name of the chapter is Recruiting Campaign). He was trying to enlist volunteers to help fight on behalf of the Empire during WWI (Britain having refused to conscript Indians into the Royal Army).  He wasn't proposing the arming of civilians, rather that India should have it's own army.  He foresaw such a force as being another step along the road to Indian Home Rule.



outlawauron said:
Barozi said:
The US is CLEARLY a third world country regarding gun controls.

Short memo to you. The 18th century is over.

The opinions of Europeans regarding stuff like this is always hilarious.


He doesn't represent us all...not even close



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Barozi said:
The US is CLEARLY a third world country regarding gun controls.

Short memo to you. The 18th century is over.



Actually third world countries tend to have the most gun control and least gun ownership.  Outside of countries like Somalia anyway.   It's why gun control people are stuck between using local data (which skews against them) and worldwide data (the same) and instead go with a collection of rich countries... but only certain rich countries.


Worldwide data looks something like this...

 

Honestly i'm surprised Serbia's murder rate is so low.



the2real4mafol said:
Player1x3 said:
the2real4mafol said:
I don't get it, you Americans are far too obsessed when it comes to your guns. 30 kids died because of how easy it is to get something that is designed to injure or kill.

Wherever you like it or not, what Obama is doing is the right thing to do. I don't know why people need an assault rifle like the AR-15 anyway, if you need a gun for "self-defense", just get a pistol or a baseball bat, that would work fine anyway. Screw the NRA!


So you just ignore all the facts in the document, shut your ears and yell the usual left wing holier than thou crap despite the facts?

and you think it's perfect? Some of the "facts" ignore why homicide tends to be higher in some countries, if gun laws are apart of the actual reason, they don't act alone. Economic problems, social issues between different races and neighborhoods and general personal problems play apart in shootings too. I know shootings will happen regardless of what the law says, but the person obviously has some issues if they want to kill anyone. Don't you ever think a persons wealth plays apart in why a crime is committed? You never see a rich person go on a killing spree ever. 

But you may criticise my political beliefs but I hope you know the Right aren't any better. They yell just as much to get what they want, but thankfully most of the time it don't work. You think going to war in 2 countries in the last 10 years for no proper reason was right? But, there are things that socialism get right, things that liberalism get right and things that conservatism get right, none of them are perfect. 

I wasn't talking about any of that. You're just grasping at straws here. Did you even read half the document ? Or did you just focuse on one thing 'arguable' on  it (that was brought up by another anti guns user and was already debunked) and just yelled ''yup this makes entire document bad, so guns are still pretty horrible, im gonna stick to my close minded narrative '' ?



Kasz216 said:
Barozi said:
The US is CLEARLY a third world country regarding gun controls.

Short memo to you. The 18th century is over.



Actually third world countries tend to have the most gun control and least gun ownership.  Outside of countries like Somalia anyway.   It's why gun control people are stuck between using local data (which skews against them) and worldwide data (the same) and instead go with a collection of rich countries... but only certain rich countries.


Worldwide data looks something like this...

 

Honestly i'm surprised Serbia's murder rate is so low.

I doubt that third world countries have enough resources and are non-corrupt enough to enforce their gun control laws efficiently.

Does that data include ilegally owned weapons? And what about weapons owned by drug cartels and other organizations? I doubt that you can phone the FARC and they'll tell you how many guns they have.

And I could argue about the population pyramid differencies between third world countries and first world countries does have an effect here.



SamuelRSmith said:

Next time you find yourself in a debate with a holier-than-thou anti-gun-nut, this massive fact sheet should provide you with every point and counter point you'd ever need - including citations and easy-to-read graphs!

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

I have this wish.  It is likely a fairly useless wish, because I doubt anyone will heed it, but here it goes.  I do wish individuals like yourself would FOR ONCE, try to acknowledge the worries and concerns, and anxieties over the loss of life of small childen that were killed by an unbalanced individuals who easily got guns.  And, in this, see if you can propose something that acknowledges this.  And, for those who are gungho about barreling down and getting rid of all guns, PLEASE at least READ the second amendment, before you decide you want to disarm everyone.

Of course, this is a fruitless wish, because people seems to not want to honor the U.S Constitution or have a respect for human life.  They are more interesting winning POINTLESS arguments on forums like this. 

I am tired of the shootings.  I am tired of psychos being used as political footballs (I got tired of this back when the congresswoman got shot).  And I am sick of people smugly being right. 

Now is NOT the time for "the ultimate gun factsheet".  Now is time to acknowledge human loss and think why society is sick in this way, and what can be done.  Personally, I don't believe your autonomous cries for "freedom" and personal liberty is the answer here to stopping these shootings.

Anyhow, carry on.  Maybe you can go and get in touch withe NRA and call them a bunch of wusses for not speaking out with your fact sheet.  



outlawauron said:
Barozi said:
The US is CLEARLY a third world country regarding gun controls.

Short memo to you. The 18th century is over.

The opinions of Europeans regarding stuff like this is always hilarious.


Funny, as a European, I would say the same about Americans.

In my life, I have never once needed a gun, nor have I seen one in my own country, guns are used for killing, which is something which I do not need to do, nor will need to do for the foreseeable future.