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Forums - Politics - This is why I don't like debating religion

happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

We can certainly observe the splitting of cells, this is testable. We can absolutely confirm the existence of the new cell via observation. Not sure what your point is?

For that specific cell, we could confirm its existence via observation. But prior to observing it, we couldn't say whether that cell existed or not, though it exists. The fact that we can confirm existence and the existence of an object are two fundamentally distinct properties, the second (confirmation of existence) based on the first (existence).

That's my point. There is no way to determine existence without observation of evidence.



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EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
 

whatever dude - the bible has been around forever, and inspite of all its purported flaws, and it will be around long after you and your prestigious scholars and universities have turned to dust. 1 book my friend, 1 resilliant little book like no other


Also "The Bible" really hasn't demonstrated that it's that much more resillient than many of the world's ancient texts.  You can still go into any major bookstore and still buy "The Iliad", "The Odyssey", the "Bhagavad Gita", the Egyptian "Funerary Texts and Book of the Dead", "The Gnostic Gospels" ( interest in which has been dramatically on the increase over the last 50 years or so in comparison to the texts contained in the official version to the point that modern versions of "The Bible" are starting to include them in their texts), and even the Sumerian texts long after the time when Christians tried to stamp all trace of most of them out of the world, so I wouldn't even say "The Bible" is all that more resillient than many other ancient texts.

Remind me again how man people in the world in different countries and across different culters and races worship the God of the Iliad RELIGIOUSLY day by day. We know who christians are, but what do you call people who's main religious text is th e Book of the Dead? Are you a member or believer in any of these groups? Have you been debating or seen many debates with people that worship the god og the Odyssey?

Please expand upon the purported significance and the followings of these texts you mentioned in contrast to the Bible. Thanks


I don't know of many but given the great lengths including burnings of the texts and murders of the people that believed in them that the Christians went to to have all of these other books removed from the face of the earth during the early years of their era through the Middle Ages, it would appear that for such a supposedly omnipotent god Yahweh just wasn't strong enough to really exterimate Zeus, Thor etc.  Or that if he was really so omniscient, he would have known about the prescence of the Gnostic Gospels in a jar in the desert in Egypt and had his followers destroy them since they cast him in such a bad light and are reportedly so demonic, but it didn't happen.

you do realise that people have tried also to eradicate Christianity and the Bible - remember Jesus dieing on a Cross, remember that?



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dsgrue3 said:

That's my point. There is no way to determine existence without observation of evidence.

And I completely agree with you, it doesn't negate existence, it only negates certainty of existence.



happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

That's my point. There is no way to determine existence without observation of evidence.

And I completely agree with you, it doesn't negate existence, it only negates certainty of existence.


Then don't claim God exists as there is no evidence to that.



dsgrue3 said:

Then don't claim God exists as there is no evidence to that.

I'm not sure why you're telling me what to do. Have I claimed that God exists ITT?

However, before I go there, I first want to show that you cannot claim that he doesn't exist simply because you haven't confirmed that he in fact does exist.

My point from the very start.

happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:
Alright, this is getting really stupid.

Existence is predicated upon observation, and observation is predicated upon evidence. As there is no such observation of a supernatural being "God", none such entity exists. 

Until evidence surfaces supporting your claim that a supernatural being exists, one does not exist. The same logic may be applied to unicorns or leprechauns.

Or to atoms in a less technologically advanced era. The lack of evidence doesn't negate the existence.



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happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Then don't claim God exists as there is no evidence to that.

I'm not sure why you're telling me what to do. Have I claimed that God exists ITT?

However, before I go there, I first want to show that you cannot claim that he doesn't exist simply because you haven't confirmed that he in fact does exist.

My point from the very start.

It isn't a testable hypothesis. I am not claiming anything. And I am telling you that you can't claim anything either. 



dsgrue3 said:

It isn't a testable hypothesis. I am not claiming anything. And I am telling you that you can't claim anything either. 

You claimed that "Until evidence surfaces supporting your claim that a supernatural being exists, one does not exist", and that was false.

I never claimed God exists, but even if I did you can't say that he doesn't because I haven't had confirmation of it. However, you could try to disprove his existence using other means of logic (like if the story of God is full of inconsistencies, then you would have a point).

I believe everyone in their experience have ran into a case where something existed but they were not aware (and possibly nobody else was aware of its existence), yet when they discovered it they were amazed.

That's because existence is not predicated by confirmation of existence.



dsgrue3 said:
GameOver22 said:

Maybe...maybe not. We don't really know the probabilities involved. Anyway, that wasn't really my point. My point was that we can actually have meaningful discussions about non-observed entities.


Not familiar with the Drake equation?

 

Ummmmm......a quick look kind of proves my points. We don't know the probabilities involved. It just involves a bunch of people filling in the equation and getting different results. The big problem is determining the prbabilities for: (1) live arising and (2) that live evolving into intelligent life (I was unclear, but I was talking about intelligent life). We really don't know those probabilities, primarily because of experimental limitations.

Point being, there is still serious debate as to how life actually arose, and secondly, we have extreme limitations when looking at how evolution proceeds, especially in the long-run.....as in the billions of years it took for humans to evolve. Its very difficult to acribe any sort of probabilities under these conditions, where our ability to manipulate variables and run experiments is extremely limited.



happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

It isn't a testable hypothesis. I am not claiming anything. And I am telling you that you can't claim anything either. 

You claimed that "Until evidence surfaces supporting your claim that a supernatural being exists, one does not exist", and that was false.

I never claimed God exists, but even if I did you can't say that he doesn't because I haven't had confirmation of it. However, you could try to disprove his existence using other means of logic (like if the story of God is full of inconsistencies, then you would have a point).

I believe everyone in their experience have ran into a case where something existed but they were not aware (and possibly nobody else was aware of its existence), yet when they discovered it they were amazed.

That's because existence is not predicated by confirmation of existence.

I understand. I posted in the other thread about this.

I will modify that quotation to: "Until evidence surfaces supporting your claim that a supernatural being exists, you cannot claim one exists." It's a subtle change, but very impactful.



GameOver22 said:
dsgrue3 said:
GameOver22 said:

Maybe...maybe not. We don't really know the probabilities involved. Anyway, that wasn't really my point. My point was that we can actually have meaningful discussions about non-observed entities.


Not familiar with the Drake equation?

 

Ummmmm......a quick look kind of proves my points. We don't know the probabilities involved. It just involves a bunch of people filling in the equation and getting different results. The big problem is determining the prbabilities for: (1) live arising and (2) that live evolving into intelligent life (I was unclear, but I was talking about intelligent life). We really don't know those probabilities, primarily because of experimental limitations.

Point being, there is still serious debate as to how life actually arose, and secondly, we have extreme limitations when looking at how evolution proceeds, especially in the long-run.....as in the billions of years it took for humans to evolve. Its very difficult to acribe any sort of probabilities under these conditions, where our ability to manipulate variables and run experiments is extremely limited.

Haha, you should look into the Drake equation much further. The probabilities involve observations of other systems and their likelyhood of having planets in the goldilocks region capable of supporting life.

Evolution is entirely irrelevant. A single cell IS life. All that is necessary.