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Forums - Politics - This is why I don't like debating religion

Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 


My dear, the bolded - after that very pitiful, lenghty reply, I can see that either you are very dense or so warped in your strange belief that no words can describe the lunacy of all that you said. A bit too deep? One does not require religious belief to think things deeply.

Again, you are only proving what the OP describes when you genuinely believe that what you say is a satisfactory answer. It is an epidemic of the Christian mind to think that (once again) a book of philosophy is your proof for the existence of your god. You, sir, are ignorant.

But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. And indeed, you seem entirely blissful.

Typical. Dude, no need to resort to name calling. I wonder if the Mods will feel about your name calling? Anyways,

2 Corinthians 6:18

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

It is ignorance though. Whether anybody likes it or not, that's what it is. Ignorance. To deny the facts that are being presented to you everyday and even attempt to present the ridiculous big book of nonsense as fact of anything is preposterous.

And name calling? I have not been rude. I am using the term in context - belief in a fairytale of which there is no evidence whilst ignoring fact and reason = ignorance.

Whatever man, I aint mad at yah.

What I do stand to learn from you is humility. I don't wanna come across like a right twat. I hope (religion aside) we can be friends.

nah we're cool. things always get heated in these kinds of debates, sometimes its you most times its me



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

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EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 

The problem with that line of reasoning is that today there is significant scholarly debate about just what Jesus himself actually left behind.  There is even abundant evidence that the earliest written works about Jesus didn't even mention key details in Jesus' life including the Resurrection as well as the fact that the Gospels themselves might not be trustworthy as they were written long after the time of Jesus by people that didn't even know him and seem to add bits and pieces from the stories of several earlier gods or gurus to make Jesus appear to be more appealing than he does in earlier works like the original version of the "Gospel of Mark" ( which  wasn't written until several decades after Jesus' death by someone that most scholarls at the most prestigious universities tend to agree wasn't an eyewitness to the life of Jesus) while some books that have been long suppressed like "The Gospel of Thomas" are beginning to appear as if they were written as early as any of the other Gospels yet paint an entirely different picture of Jesus.  And then there's the general lack of any corroborating evidence to support anything in the Gospels from any highly regarded non-Biblical Historian that would have been near Jerusalem duing Jesus' time.

Sources:  "The Restored New Testament:  A New Translation With Commentary, Including The Gnostic Gospels of Thomas, Mary, and Judas" By    Willis Barnstone Ph. D ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Restored-New-Testament-Translation/dp/039306493X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355820375&sr=8-1&keywords=the+restored+new+testament )

                 "The Case Against the Case for Christ:  A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel" by Robert M. Price Ph. D. ( http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Christ-Testament-Reverend/dp/1578840058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820647&sr=1-1&keywords=the+case+against+the+case+for+christ )

                  "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels Ph. D (  http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820821&sr=1-1&keywords=the+gnostic+gospels+elaine+pagels )

                  "The Historical Jesus:  The Life of a Meditterranean Jewish Peasant" ( http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Mediterranean-Jewish-Peasant/dp/0060616296/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-2) and "The Power of Parable:  How Fiction By Jesus Became Fiction About Jesus" ( http://www.amazon.com/Power-Parable-Fiction-Jesus-Became/dp/0061875694/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-1 ) by John Dominic Crossan Ph. D.

                And several books by Bart Ehrman Ph. D The James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill including "Forged:  Writing in the Name of God  Why The Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" (  http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God--Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/B006QS02F8/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821387&sr=1-5&keywords=ehrman ) and "Misquoting Jesus:  The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why" ( http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821511&sr=1-4&keywords=ehrman )

I assume that you know there are equally abudant counter arguments, websites, books, etc. that couner everything you just wrote.

And who produces them?  Christian Apologists teaching at places like Liberty College at best.  I'll go with the opinions of the most reputable authorities that have demonstrated that they  are actually qualified to teach at the world's most prestigious universities as have the scholars listed above Thank You very much.

whatever dude - the bible has been around forever, and inspite of all its purported flaws, and it will be around long after you and your prestigious scholars and universities have turned to dust. 1 book my friend, 1 resilliant little book like no other



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

happydolphin said:
No problem :)


ok, noted for next religious debate



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

:D thanks



@DaRev

You do know that your God is dead right? In a century, or two at the most. The last true believer will have died, and your God can join that pantheon of Mythological Gods. Who's time has come and gone. He will be as relevant then as Thor or Zeus are today. So it is actually quite ironic that you demean the Universities which will be the only places where he will actually be discussed at all. Granted it will be by Historians, Psychologists, and Anthropologists. Still you shouldn't take ill about the scholars that are going to preserve his corpse.

Anyway that is what happens with things that don't work. We throw them away in favor of things that do work. It is ironic really that you don't recognize the fact that you have already given yourself over to a new God. Every time you turn on a electronic device you are performing a sacrament, and every time you pray at the alter of modern medicine, and ask for healing you make yourself more that gods servant. The truth is you have placed almost all of your faith in the god we call Science, but this new God is a merciful God, and demands nothing of you at all. Unlike the evil God you still pretend to worship.

Can I get a Amen.



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Excellent! Well said!



We ALL wanted it, now we ALL are finally going to get SHENMUE III !!! Let us REJOICE IN THE STREETS!!!

Dodece said:
@DaRev

You do know that your God is dead right? In a century, or two at the most. The last true believer will have died, and your God can join that pantheon of Mythological Gods. Who's time has come and gone. He will be as relevant then as Thor or Zeus are today. So it is actually quite ironic that you demean the Universities which will be the only places where he will actually be discussed at all. Granted it will be by Historians, Psychologists, and Anthropologists. Still you shouldn't take ill about the scholars that are going to preserve his corpse.

Anyway that is what happens with things that don't work. We throw them away in favor of things that do work. It is ironic really that you don't recognize the fact that you have already given yourself over to a new God. Every time you turn on a electronic device you are performing a sacrament, and every time you pray at the alter of modern medicine, and ask for healing you make yourself more that gods servant. The truth is you have placed almost all of your faith in the god we call Science, but this new God is a merciful God, and demands nothing of you at all. Unlike the evil God you still pretend to worship.

Can I get a Amen.

I believe your logical breakdown occured when you opposed God and science.

I'm not sure what stretch was required for you to do that. How exactly am I worshipping my computer by coming to vgchartz, exactly?



Dodece said:
@DaRev

You do know that your God is dead right? In a century, or two at the most. The last true believer will have died, and your God can join that pantheon of Mythological Gods. Who's time has come and gone. He will be as relevant then as Thor or Zeus are today. So it is actually quite ironic that you demean the Universities which will be the only places where he will actually be discussed at all. Granted it will be by Historians, Psychologists, and Anthropologists. Still you shouldn't take ill about the scholars that are going to preserve his corpse.

Anyway that is what happens with things that don't work. We throw them away in favor of things that do work. It is ironic really that you don't recognize the fact that you have already given yourself over to a new God. Every time you turn on a electronic device you are performing a sacrament, and every time you pray at the alter of modern medicine, and ask for healing you make yourself more that gods servant. The truth is you have placed almost all of your faith in the god we call Science, but this new God is a merciful God, and demands nothing of you at all. Unlike the evil God you still pretend to worship.

Can I get a Amen.

Proverbs 29:11 ESV

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Proverbs 12:16 ESV

The vexation of a fool is known at once, but the prudent ignores an insult.

Proverbs 14:7-9 ESV

Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools is deceiving. Fools mock at the guilt offering, but the upright enjoy acceptance.

Amen.


Moderated,

-Mr Khan



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:
 

whatever dude - the bible has been around forever, and inspite of all its purported flaws, and it will be around long after you and your prestigious scholars and universities have turned to dust. 1 book my friend, 1 resilliant little book like no other


Actually "The Bible" as something that has any large  impact on how  society is governed is rapidly losing its position.  As it should since almost all the major claims based upon it have been proven to be in error during the last 500 years and Gallileo demonstrated that the universe doesn't revolve around the earth.  "The Bible" stood its ground until the advent of the Scientific Revolution mainly because belief in it was enforced by the Roman Empire and disbelief was punishable by death.  However, in the last two centuries, its influence has really started to crumble.

The United States with 89% of the people considering themselves to be religious remains the only first world industriazed nation to remain anywhere near as religious as it is.

In comparison only 66% of Australians ( http://bribiebaptist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10:australia-is-one-of-the-worlds-least-religious-countries&catid=1:latest-news ) and Canadians, 48% of Britains, 46% of the French, and only 28% of Germans and Austrians  consider themselves to be religious (  https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=how+religious+is+the+united+states+compared+to+other+countries&oq=how+religious+is+the+united+states+compared+to+other+countries&gs_l=hp.12...1408.34423.0.36026.112.68.17.19.28.3.544.10196.4j55j6j2j0j1.68.0.les%3B..6.0...1c.1.07N5etfVU_E&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.b2U&fp=f4c2134a814ceeeb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1366&bih=664 ).

In the meantime disbelief is the world's fastest growing philosophical stance (  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/ ).

The fact that Romney couldn't beat Obama with most of America's White, Evangelical vote in Romney's corner shows how dramatically "The Bible"'s influence is slipping even in America.

Two Hundred Years from now as more of the claims based on "The Bible" continue to prove to be unwarranted eg. no Apocalyptic end of the world on the way with no Jesus appearing from the clouds to throw all the people Fundamentalists hate in Hell ( Muslims, gays, women that "don't know their place"), and America's level of education rises to match that of people in the European countries, "The Bible" and most importantly  literal belief in its pages will have little impact on human societies.

So I would argue that "The Bible" isn't that resilliant at all.  It may have had a major impact on the world for ~1500 years and as long as people were murdered for not believing in it.  But, it took only 500 to 700 years of people being able to freely inquire into the subjects that "The Bible" had supposedly had all the answers to for people to demonstrate that most of "The Bible"'s major claims were wrong and for disbelief to rapidly be on the rise to the point where there is only one major first world industrialized nation where the majority of the people place any strong reliance on what it has to say. 



DaRev said:
 

whatever dude - the bible has been around forever, and inspite of all its purported flaws, and it will be around long after you and your prestigious scholars and universities have turned to dust. 1 book my friend, 1 resilliant little book like no other


Also "The Bible" really hasn't demonstrated that it's that much more resillient than many of the world's ancient texts.  You can still go into any major bookstore and still buy "The Iliad", "The Odyssey", the "Bhagavad Gita", the Egyptian "Funerary Texts and Book of the Dead", "The Gnostic Gospels" ( interest in which has been dramatically on the increase over the last 50 years or so in comparison to the texts contained in the official version to the point that modern versions of "The Bible" are starting to include them in their texts), and even the Sumerian texts long after the time when Christians tried to stamp all trace of most of them out of the world, so I wouldn't even say "The Bible" is all that more resillient than many other ancient texts.