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Forums - Politics - How to Destroy an Athiests in a argument! (Updated with poll)

 

Who won?

The Athiest 40 70.18%
 
The creationist 17 29.82%
 
Total:57
dsgrue3 said:
Player1x3 said:
  • Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
  • Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
  • Adolf Hitler, Atheist: 15 million dead
  • Vladimir Lenin, Atheist: 5.5 million dead
  • Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
  • Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
  • Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead

          (all in time span of max 70 years)
Vs.

  • Catholic Inqusition: (time span: 500+ years) 20-30.000 dead
  • The Crusades :  (time span:200+ years) 1.5-2 million dead

Atheist dictators killed millions of people over the past century, and caused more death in a much shorter time span than almost any other catastrophe that has happened in the civilized world, and imprisoned  or murdered hundreds of thousands in an effort to eradicate religion itself, because, you know, mass murder is the inevitable result when a community becomes too intolerant of outlandish dogmas and too fond of critical thinking. Oh the irony!


Hitler was not an atheist. 

 

"Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Crusades estimates are quite poor, it varies between 1 and 9 million. You are on the low end. 

Your argument is a poor one, comparing the acts of a few to anyone sharing their views.

EDIT: The religious wars are based upon religion, the wars from those leaders you presented do not stem from atheism. It's entirely irrelevant. HUGE difference.

 


Everyone who was close to Hitler said that he was an atheist. In the public he presented himself as a christian to turn th people agaisnt the Jews. Example from his own book:

To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.


All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) 

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43) 

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

...and theres waay more where this came from. Just tell me if you want more quotes and the links

Hitler had the biggest respect for muslim and tradition japanese religions. He also said that it is unfortunate, that the german religion is the Christian one.

The HIGHEST tool for the deaths in Crusades in around 3 million (source:wikipedia) and I used 1.5-2 million mark to be fair. I have no idea what kind of crap Dawkins made you believe.

And you should know this argument very well, because apparently, Middle Age Catholic church represents whole Christianity and every Christian person today...oh wait, double standards are atheist exclusive, right?

And LOL at '' entirely irrelevant''. Communism is a political belief that is agaisnt religion and promotes anti-theism (which is an extreme form of atheism). Are you going to convince me that people were able to follow their religion freely and worship whatever they want in any of those countries led by those people. Sure, they didnt kill people for being ahtiests, but they did for being theists. Thats like saying ''KKK didnt lynch people for being black, they lynched them for not being white !''



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OP .. Funny video... Two Thumbs Up!

The religious debate... why bother. So long as they keep it out of my science classroom, they are free to believe in whatever sky god they choose.

The pastafari have a compelling narrative though for heaven, strippers and beer. If I had to choose, that one sounds like fun... plus it has pirates!



Ocelot said:
As there is no god theres no possible way for a christian to destory an atheist.

Oh, there are many ways and already proofed in history: hanging, quarter, burning, beheading. History shows: these waysw are very effective to destroy an atheist.



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Player1x3 said:
Everyone who was close to Hitler said that he was an atheist. In the public he presented himself as a christian to turn th people agaisnt the Jews. Example from his own book:

To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.


All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) 

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43) 

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

...and theres waay more where this came from. Just tell me if you want more quotes and the links

Hitler had the biggest respect for muslim and tradition japanese religions. He also said that it is unfortunate, that the german religion is the Christian one.

The HIGHEST tool for the deaths in Crusades in around 3 million (source:wikipedia) and I used 1.5-2 million mark to be fair. I have no idea what kind of crap Dawkins made you believe.

And you should know this argument very well, because apparently, Middle Age Catholic church represents whole Christianity and every Christian person today...oh wait, double standards are atheist exclusive, right?

And LOL at '' entirely irrelevant''. Communism is a political belief that is agaisnt religion and promotes anti-theism (which is an extreme form of atheism). Are you going to convince me that people were able to follow their religion freely and worship whatever they want in any of those countries led by those people. Sure, they didnt kill people for being ahtiests, but they did for being theists. Thats like saying ''KKK didnt lynch people for being black, they lynched them for not being white !''


None of the quotes you provide show any rejection of a god whatsoever, they just illustrate his disdain for power structures (in this case churches) that may conflict with his own dominance.  Rejection of the Christian church is not a rejection of the belief in god, or even in all of Christian beliefs.  There is no rejection of Jesus as a messiah in there at all.



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Player1x3 said:


  • Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
  • Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
  • Adolf Hitler, Atheist: 15 million dead
  • Vladimir Lenin, Atheist: 5.5 million dead
  • Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
  • Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
  • Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead

          (all in time span of max 70 years)
Vs.

  • Catholic Inqusition: (time span: 500+ years) 20-30.000 dead
  • The Crusades :  (time span:200+ years) 1.5-2 million dead

Atheist dictators killed millions of people over the past century, and caused more death in a much shorter time span than almost any other catastrophe that has happened in the civilized world, and imprisoned  or murdered hundreds of thousands in an effort to eradicate religion itself, because, you know, mass murder is the inevitable result when a community becomes too intolerant of outlandish dogmas and too fond of critical thinking. Oh the irony!


You compare atheists that killed people with people killed because of Christianity. Nobody was kileld because of Atheism, the killings the people you named did there not because someone did not follow atheism or for bringing atheism. This is the typical hate-speech against atheists. Yes, some bad people were atheists. But atheism was not the reason for the bad things they did.



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my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024

10 years greatest game event!

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Player1x3 said:
beatles1082 said:
Dr.Grass said:
beatles1082 said:


This is the STUPIDEST. Argument in existence. My blood boils when I hear atheists spewing this utter crap. You're just jumping on the exact same bandwagon you're supposedly decrying.


You're just too stupid to see it.

 there's no need to feel threatened by an atheist.   There are still 7 countries where the state can excecute citizens for being an atheist.

  • Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
  • Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
  • Adolf Hitler, Atheist: 15 million dead
  • Vladimir Lenin, Atheist: 5.5 million dead
  • Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
  • Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
  • Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead

          (all in time span of max 70 years)
Vs.

  • Catholic Inqusition: (time span: 500+ years) 20-30.000 dead
  • The Crusades :  (time span:200+ years) 1.5-2 million dead

Atheist dictators killed millions of people over the past century, and caused more death in a much shorter time span than almost any other catastrophe that has happened in the civilized world, and imprisoned  or murdered hundreds of thousands in an effort to eradicate religion itself, because, you know, mass murder is the inevitable result when a community becomes too intolerant of outlandish dogmas and too fond of critical thinking. Oh the irony!


Youre argument is fundamentaly flawed in its comparison of some of the worst tragedies commited by athiest (noting hitler was a roman catholic) to those commited in the name of christianity. 

The reason I say that it is flawed is that athiesm is just people not believing in the existence of a god and does not provide as religion does divine instructions on what an individual must do or can do in the name of that particular religion. 

At best the argument can be made that thoose mass murders did the things they did partly to rid the world of religion. But all of them (bar hitler who was only killing jews because they were his scapegoat) tried to rid the world of religion because they percieved it as a threat to their authority. The obvious reason that they saw it as a threat was that it was so similar to their own power structures that demanded complete unquestioning authority.

And lets not forget Hirohito the emperor of Japan who did not only believe in god but rather believed himself to be a god who did terrible things and commended people to do terrible things. 

Just because someone kills people to spread an ideal does not mean that that ideal is wrong or leads people to evil but rather reflects on the people who choose to adopt such inhumane tactics to spread such ideals. For examplemany people were killed in the was for independance as well but does that mean that the idea of American independance was wrong?

Religion on the other hand gives people instructions of what to believe and what to do that cannot be questioned as they are the divine word of the lord and to do so would be blasphemy. Sure there are thoose who do not believe everything there bible says but to them I say if you think part of it is wrong why dont you believe all of it could be wrong? 

What you're argument fails to do is prove causation rather than correlation since the actions of thoose people on your list are clearly done in the name of maniacal dictators (which they most certainly were)

I dont believe that christinas who do things they were not told to do in the bible should be used as examples of why christianity is bad. But thoose who use arguments put forth by their religious text or the commands of their religious leaders will damm well be used to show why religions are a dangerous force in the world today.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

I aprove of that video. Very good!



SlayerRondo said:

Religion on the other hand gives people instructions of what to believe and what to do that cannot be questioned as they are the divine word of the lord and to do so would be blasphemy. Sure there are thoose who do not believe everything there bible says but to them I say if you think part of it is wrong why dont you believe all of it could be wrong? 


In that case, we better start putting everyone to death. As wearing clothes of mixed fabrics isn't allowed. (Bible says this, not me.)

Fact of the matter is, the Bible was never natively written in English it was translated over to English and some thing just never translate well

Secondly, it was written in another time for another time when the world and it's people was far more hostile.

And to add to that historically speaking religion was a way to try to explain things that we as humans simply did not understand, take for example Thor, God of thunder to explain the reason why we had Thunder and Lightning.
Or the Egyption God, Ra to explain the sun or Yum Caax to explain Nature... The list goes on, it doesn't make the current God-Of-The-Day any more credible than prior ones, just that science hasn't evolved enough to disprove it.




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badgenome said:

More to the point, they just like different sides of New Keynesianism. The Democrats like Paul Krugman, who was a respectable, mainstream (if Keynesian) economist until '99/2000 when the double whammy of his joining the New York Times and the Bush candidacy/presidency turned him into a fucking loon. The Republicans like Greg Mankiw, who initially comes across as saner than Krugman (he'd be hard pressed not to) but still thinks that the government ought to try to finagle the economy into doing what it wants, only he prefers creating deficits through tax cuts without matching spending cuts. Actually, they're both just partisans who use economic mumbo-jumbo to justify whatever their team is doing and slam whatever the other team does.

I don't think Obamacare puts us in a better place for the same reason that all the previous price controls and other government interventions haven't put us in a better place. It's just more of the same on steroids, only with a decidedly more corporatist flavor this time. As usual, Obama put on his demagogue pants and pretended to be battling some nefarious evil (health insurers with their whopping 3% profit margins) in order to sell the thing while cutting deals to make sure that the health care industry's big players all actually supported his bill. Corporations aren't stupid, and they know that when something as huge as a health care overhaul is going to happen it's best to get on board to get the carveouts they want, so they did. Big pharma did especially well for themselves. It's actually a myth that these giant corporations have any fondness whatsoever for the free market when in reality they enjoy corporatism just as much as the government does; it keeps smaller competitors off their backs, among other things. (In other lobbyist news, it's worth nothing that Liz Fowler, the architect of Obamacare, just joined Johnson & Johnson a couple of weeks ago.)

And I'm not professor, LOL. I do work at a university, but I'm in research.

Oh I definitely agree with you, the big health insurance companies love this new bill. I'm arguing from the standpoint of one very specific thing that was without a doubt broken before the reform. That being denial of coverage for individuals with pre-existing conditions. Also an extension of that, kicking people off insurance when their bills exceeded a certain limit. That was completely unjust, especially when many people are born with conditions they have no control over. But the bill as a whole is a major mess.

What is your area of research? I'm in biotech myself.



                                           

                      The definitive evidence that video games turn people into mass murderers

The HIGHEST tool for the deaths in Crusades in around 3 million (source:wikipedia) and I used 1.5-2 million mark to be fair. I have no idea what kind of crap Dawkins made you believe.

And you should know this argument very well, because apparently, Middle Age Catholic church represents whole Christianity and every Christian person today...oh wait, double standards are atheist exclusive, right?

And LOL at '' entirely irrelevant''. Communism is a political belief that is agaisnt religion and promotes anti-theism (which is an extreme form of atheism). Are you going to convince me that people were able to follow their religion freely and worship whatever they want in any of those countries led by those people. Sure, they didnt kill people for being ahtiests, but they did for being theists. Thats like saying ''KKK didnt lynch people for being black, they lynched them for not being white !''

Crusades (1095-1291) 3,000,000 [make link]

Estimated totals:

Robertson, John M., A Short History of Christianity (1902) p.278: 9,000,000

Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000

Henry William Elson, Modern Times and the Living Past, (1921) p. 261: 5,000,000

Om Prakesh Jaggi, Religion, Practice and Science of Non-violence, (1974) p. 40: "The crusades cost Europe five million young men"

Fielding Hudson Garrison, Notes on the History of Military Medicine, Association of Military Surgeons, (1922) p. 106: 3,000,000 total, incl. 2,000,000 Europeans

MEDIAN: 3 million

Philip Alexander Prince, Parallel universal history, an outline of the history and biography of the world divided into ... (1838) p.207: "Although two million souls perished in the Crusades..."

Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html]

Wertham: 1,000,000

John Shertzer Hittell, A Brief History of Culture (1874) p.137: "In the two centuries of this warfare one million persons had been slain..."

NOTE: No scholar has ever published a death toll of less than one million or more than nine million, so the order of magnitude is generally accepted even if the precise number is unknown.

 

This has nothing to do with Dawkins, no idea why you've even brought that up. 

com·mu·nism noun ˈkäm-yə-ˌni-zəm, -yü-

 

Definition of COMMUNISM

1

a : a theory advocating elimination of private property

b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed

2

capitalized

a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production

c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably

Interesting how there isn't even a mention of religion in the definition of Communism. 
Another contrived argument...
The Crusades were entirely about religion. 
None of the touted "Atheist" leaders waged war as a result of their non-belief. Merely for power.
So yes, entirely irrelevant.