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Forums - Politics - Victory for the Constitution... in Illinois?!

Soleron on 11 December 2012
ninetailschris said:
Soleron said:
...


--

Max I cannot ever agree with you, and I hope your version of morality doesn't become the majority in my country.


Your morality has been proven be very nativ. You try acting like if some broke in your house with children you should not expect them to attack you or your children you should just hope they go away or try fighting but hey if lose they could always kidnapped your children or kill you every after trying to fight to make sure. I know one thing if you think criminals will not do something crazy in the moment orthat you are 100 percent sure there not going to do something that will have permanent effect on you or your family then great.

Max is right here because to assume you know this criminal minds are at the moment is a fools game. This people are in survival mode mostly likely stealing to survive and if they see a way to get there means they do anything to get it. People have been beaten to death in there own house because they were just in the way of criminal and didn't want them to tell anyone who robbed them. I know this because my grandfather was  cop told me stories of when he saw the results. Some have killed just out fear to thing anything about honorable or fair is for the native who haven't been in th worst situations.

It's not a question of whether I want to shoot them. If they were threatening my family of course I would want to. It's that I don't have the right to, much as the police don't have the right to beat people up for looking at them funny.

Leaving this thread now because as I said, it's not a question of reasoning but of principle and we cannot convince each other.



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leatherhat on 12 December 2012

Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year. Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed. Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362. It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993. Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/11/gun-crime-soars-in-england-where-guns-are-banned-n1464528

So much for that then. 

Soleron said:

Yes. Morally it's only acceptable to me to use reasonable force, i.e. equal to what they're using on you. So if they're using a gun you can use a gun, but that's the only situation. If they're just stealing stuff your job is to get away, phone the police and call your insurance about what was taken.

I said my peace. This type of thinking is dangerous and you must be willing to stand against people who would attack you. 



ǝןdɯıs ʇı dǝǝʞ oʇ ǝʞıן ı ʍouʞ noʎ 

Ask me about being an elitist jerk

Time for hype

outlawauron on 12 December 2012
badgenome said:
Soleron said:

Self-defence is consistent with "only be used to injure people". Every other use can be applied for. It's not restricting anyone's right to possess a gun except for the purpose of wanting to kill people with it.

Nerve gas can presumably be used in self-defence as well.

I was stunned for a second that you really don't see a difference between nerve gas and a handgun, but I forgot that self-defense wasn't considered legitimate in modern Britain beyond perhaps bleeding on your assailant (though not to excess). Cultural difference, I suppose.

This. I sometimes forget how different cultures are across the globe. I wonder when people will give this argument as it's shown that less gun control laws lead to less violent crime.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
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Veknoid_Outcast on 12 December 2012
leatherhat said:

Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year. Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed. Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362. It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993. Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/11/gun-crime-soars-in-england-where-guns-are-banned-n1464528

So much for that then. 

Soleron said:

Yes. Morally it's only acceptable to me to use reasonable force, i.e. equal to what they're using on you. So if they're using a gun you can use a gun, but that's the only situation. If they're just stealing stuff your job is to get away, phone the police and call your insurance about what was taken.

Wow, with this kind of mentality its no wonder Pakistani's are able to turn british children into prostitutes. English men have lost their spine. 

You managed to indict and stereotype two nationalities in two sentences. I think this demonstrates the level of reason and maturity in this thread.

And shame on Max King of the Wild for using the Holocaust to prove his argument.



Kasz216 on 12 December 2012
theprof00 said:
Max King of the Wild said:
theprof00 said:
umm doesn't illinois already allow conceal carry?


only state that doesnt allow it and has taken the top spot in violence laately

but alaska hasn't seen any less violence and they have no regulation...

I'm curious about these statistics, are these gun deaths in illinois caused by criminals? Do they track that much information?

The only increase in gun deaths when it comes to loser gun regulation tends to be in the case of suicide.  Which, suicide with guns tends to be more effective then without guns.

It's really the only statistical arguement agaisnt gun ownership.

In general when you see people talk about gun death increases, this is what they're talking about.  In general, in similar or the same areas, a rise in gun ownership tends to come with a drop in crime, though i'm not a big fan of statistics like that in general, prefering the interview methods.

Though those also show that gun ownership lowers crime... unless you think like Soleron that you only count self defense as retaliating after being struck.

 

In general anti-gun legislation arguments come in 3 ways.   Appeal to Emotion, disguising the use of statistics or expanding the parameters to the most unlike situations you can find, ignoring the more accurate closer studies.



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haxxiy on 12 December 2012

I always found this poster fantastic to keep things in perspective:

Yes, it is as you are guessing.



 

 

 

 

 

Mr Khan on 12 December 2012
haxxiy said:

I always found this poster fantastic to keep things in perspective:

Yes, it is as you are guessing.

And i'll just have to remind people, again, that the people of the USSR didn't need guns to end the USSR.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Max King of the Wild on 12 December 2012
Veknoid_Outcast said:
leatherhat said:

Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year. Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed. Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362. It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993. Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/11/gun-crime-soars-in-england-where-guns-are-banned-n1464528

So much for that then. 

Soleron said:

Yes. Morally it's only acceptable to me to use reasonable force, i.e. equal to what they're using on you. So if they're using a gun you can use a gun, but that's the only situation. If they're just stealing stuff your job is to get away, phone the police and call your insurance about what was taken.

Wow, with this kind of mentality its no wonder Pakistani's are able to turn british children into prostitutes. English men have lost their spine. 

You managed to indict and stereotype two nationalities in two sentences. I think this demonstrates the level of reason and maturity in this thread.

And shame on Max King of the Wild for using the Holocaust to prove his argument.



Shame on nothing. You think that would have happened in the US?



ninetailschris on 12 December 2012
Mr Khan said:
haxxiy said:

I always found this poster fantastic to keep things in perspective:

Yes, it is as you are guessing.

And i'll just have to remind people, again, that the people of the USSR didn't need guns to end the USSR.


Just like the holocaust! Oh wait....

or the American revolution ...oh wait..

but... Never mind.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

Veknoid_Outcast on 12 December 2012
Max King of the Wild said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
leatherhat said:

[...]

Soleron said:

[...]

Wow, with this kind of mentality its no wonder Pakistani's are able to turn british children into prostitutes. English men have lost their spine. 

You managed to indict and stereotype two nationalities in two sentences. I think this demonstrates the level of reason and maturity in this thread.

And shame on Max King of the Wild for using the Holocaust to prove his argument.



Shame on nothing. You think that would have happened in the US?

No, it wouldn't have happened in the US. You know why? Because the US met none of the historical realities that allowed the Holocaust to happen, namely centuries of European anti-Semitism, the spread of fascism, and the advent of a racist political party with a mass-murderer at its head.

Your argument does a disservice to the millions who died.