By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

Viper1 said:
America should break ties with them and then see how well they can act like a bully without 'merica to back it up.

They got their own damn nukes anyway.


Is it really a good idea to leave them in a stuation where they have few choices including unleash the nukes?

Plus its really not a fair to call them a bully when surrounded by nations that hate them, have launched repeated wars against them and do little to nothing to prevent their extremist elements from firing rockets into isreal. Under similar circumstances what would America do?



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Around the Network
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:

First off.  You clearly didn't read my post, at least not correctly.   Secondly, you didn't read your own post.  I'd suggest going back and rereading them... but to put it succinctly.

There are groups in the UN that specifically vote against everything the US votes for, no matter how petty.  That's not an assumption.  There support never changed really.  It was mostly anti-american because it was the cold war.  Then when the cold war stopped.  Most of those nations were still pretty anti-american.

Secondly, Europe has nothing to do with being anti-american.  That was a completely different point... the shift with Europe was mostly due to demografic changes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/europes-trouble-with-jews.html?pagewanted=all

Is a simple enough primer.

 

Thirdly, you said their methods were getting more extreme.  Not their land grabbing.  Their methods have been muted as of late.   Espeically muted as they lost support.  

Additionally, when they unilaterally pulled back and shut down a number of settlements.   They were losing support.


So your assumptions on these points are both wrong.   You've made far more assumptions then I have.


You're making an illogical conclusion based on visible results. It's like looking at a black box, inputting a few tests and then coming to the unreasonable conclusion that it's a logical NOT operator, without any thoughts towards the inner workings of the black box. The results say that said states have always voted against America. Does that mean they will ALWAYS vote against them in all stances, or the fact that the inputs observes happen to coincidentally cause a conflict in opinion? To say the state is a simple logical NOT operator is the same as saying the state is simple.

On the European front, this is the classic retort to any criticism of Israel; just call them anti-Semetic. Ignore the fact that the left consistently denounces all sorts of opression, including the holocaust. Once again, it's the black box fallacy. Anything coming out that doesn't support Israel is anti-Semetic. It doesn't matter about the inner workings that determined the outcome. 

Oh, so you do agree that, as a response to loss of support, their settlement rate has dropped? Don't you think that there is some kind of logic behind that, and not just "well let's see if we get support back by stopping this". There would most likely have been foreign communication as to WHY they have lost support, and acted accordingly. You pretty much just admitted that there was most likely a shift in support against Israel BECAUSE of the settlements.

You obviously don't understand the concepts of how logic and predictability coincide. Allow me to explain. Your assumptions occured at the top level, so in other words, the assumption had to bridge a bigger gap. My assumptions involve plotting known facts, decaying a hop to it's own reasoning and working recursively from there. So in other words, while I may have made a few assumptions to your one, the distance of my total assumption is a lot less, since yours spanned the initial reason to begin with. You already agreed that support was being lost from Israel. You just admitted then that, as of late the rate of occupation has been decreasing, most likely bacause of lost support (you said it, not me). Join the pieces we know, don't just jump over the whole issue with one mere assumption.

Except the problem is.  You aren't using known facts.   Your base assumptions are incorrect the data your putting in is incorrect.

Again Israel's largest losses of support in europe have been most recently.   Actually around the times where it pulled back on settlments and have been more moderate in nature.

The new push for settlements has really only happened since loss of that support.

 

The new changes to extreme actions have actuallly been a response to losing that support when they "do everything right."


Except they aren't doing everything right, or else we wouldn't be talking about this.

To add to it, I merely gave settlements as an EXAMPLE. It could have been any multitude of things that conflicts with foreign policy of said states, but surely you're not backing up the claim that "the muslims are infiltrating Western europe" as a sound cause over that, are you?


Not currently they aren't.  However, again, read the post.  They WERE doing everything right.  In 2005.  What they got was cooling attitudes towards them and rockets fired at them from hamas.  There policies at the time were overly concealtaroy, and it made no difference.

As for "muslims infilitraiting western europe" that's a hilariously drastic and strawman way to say "Natural immigration changing political opinioons".  The only arabic people i know who support Israel are Catholics.

All it takes is the GOP's slowly but surely changes and soon final change in illegal immigration, or the Democrats change before it... to see the effects an immigrating population's ability to change policy.



the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles; so the holocaust excuses everything Israel does to someone else? That's an old and weak argument.


no one made that argument but you can continue to delude youself if you wish to be an ignoramus.


I hardly consider myself the ignorant party in this discussion. Insults aside; it was your intention to raise sympathy and have people look away from Israeli terror actions by posting that image, that much was clear. Its justification. Two wrongs does make a right etc.


it was pretty clear even to the person i posted the image to, that my problem was making comparisons between the this situation and that of the holocaust.   do you know why?   probably not...for reasons i stated already.   

are you even that much better than me for what i said earlier, i don't think you are not at all, for what you and the photo said, lets accept we both went a bit too far on that one. You clearly believe in an "eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth".

But I still think Israel goes too far itself. Palestine injured a few people with a missile, while Israel retaliates with a full strike killing 100's of INNOCENT citizens. don't you see a problem there? That sort of reaction is terrorism but somehow it is acceptable for them to do this. And this sort of thing has been going on for years, seriously how many people on both sides must die before a solution is made?

i actually have no idea what point you are making?   i thought your comment innapropriate and im tired of the comparisons between the palestinians and everyone who suffered the atrocites (which extend beyond just the jews) or how gaza is a concentraction camp and all the other bs.   it annoyed me and i showed you actual suffering of the holocaust.   because its not something that should be talked about lightly or just tossed about.  (also some of your alleged facts are wrong, but w/e).   i accepted that you didnt mean to use it in such a way and passed over your comment entirely to let it drop. 

ps.  yes i am better than you and it has nothing at all to do with this.  or anything at all even remotely related.  

pps.  the total fatalities in gaza are still sitting under 20 since the start of this operation  and theyve made a couple hundred strikes and the iron dome has successfully intercepted over a 100 rockets that were heading towards populated areas.

here is the iron dome in action successfully protecting civilians http://youtu.be/8kAyqbKwd1o

ppps.  no one needs to die.  if hamas and their sick brethren in gaza  didnt want to murder all the jews then no one would be dying right now.

I honestly forgot how bad the holocaust actually was, so just compared it to gaza without thinking about it, which was dumb. But i do know it is a very serious topic.

But back to gaza, operations like this have been going on for years literally. For example, in 2008, 1400 palestinians died from an operation just like the one now, even though only 10 israelis died at that time, which is way over done. And this happened many times, but yet the USA, UK etc. just ignore it, even though it's clearly wrong. Even if i was Israeli, I would condemn the government for doing such horrid acts. 

 

cast lead was different than whats been happening with pillar of w/e they are calling it.   ideally they dont even want to go in at all.  they can exert much greater precision and control with air strikes and the like.   with the iron dome in place they might not even need to go in because they can stop so many of the rockets that threaten them.   the most probable way for a civilian(in gaza) to die in this conflict is from seconadary explosions (militants store weapons in residential areas, the israelis use low explosive weapons because they dont need to use stronger ones.  it hits the weapons the weapons blow up thus damaging a great deal more than the missile could ) or from militant rockets and mortars falling short.

israel also wants to avoid a ground offensive because of egypt being controlled by hamas friends in the muslim brotherhood.  one of their initial targets was the head of the hamas military wing.  guy was a terrorist war criminal.  he was even responsible for the brutalisation of fatah in gaza, so i dont imagine abbas is all that upset about it.

this was all set off by an anti tank rocket hitting an israeli jeep on the border injuring three soldiers escalating up to this point.   in 48 hours before the operation over 100 rockets were fired into israel.

Yeah it is a hard situation they have to work with, every country around them, wants them gone. It doesn't take too much to start a great in the middle east at the moment does it. The general Arab ignorance and Israeli overeaction in campaigns just make it worse

It's hard to call it an overreaction when no other country in the world is put under similar circumstances that they are. The gaza strip where these terrorist launch rockets into isreal are in need of international intervention since they clearly cant take care of themselves.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

MrBubbles said:
Scisca said:
I think Israel is a terrorist country. They've never hesitated about bombing and killing defenceless civilians. They break so many international laws and conventions it's not even funny, but they have the American bully behind them, so they think they can do whatever they want. And the Americans fund Israel's wars, which I think was the real reason behind 9/11. You allow and help them to kill the Muslims, so you got a punch as well. As long as the US supports Israel, you can't really complain about the Muslims hating you. It's war down there, and if you support one side as strong as you do, you are a part of it.
I reckon the Jews absolutely deserve all the hatred and violence they receive, cause the Israeli and the Muslims are totally worth each other and you can't say that one side is better than the other. There are no good guys and bad guys there. I think all the Muslims terrorists are beasts, make no mistake about it. I'd feel much safer in general if the population of Arabs and Muslims in Europe wasn't growing like it is, but hey, we can't be killing them just because of that.
At the end of the day, the Jews just took from the British the land that the Muslims owned and lived in for what, 2000 years? That doesn't seem legit to me and no wonder they want to throw the Jews out.

What is incredible about the Jews is that they've never learned anything from their history. No matter when and where they went, they were pissing everyone out and it ended up in them being killed or at least thrown out. Egypt, Rome, Italy, France, Spain, Germany (other countries and nations in between as well) and now it's the Muslims' turn. Guess it's just they way they roll. They are lucky that Iran or some other Muslim country can't turn their country from desert to nuclear desert. Yet.

Plus it's not like Israel is even trying to be a democratic country like Europe or US, Canada, etc. They have total censorship and violate human right on a daily basis. Maybe if they tried to be and not just pretend to be civilised, I'd change my opinion. No reason to do it so far. They seem to be something like China. Evil that the West tolerates. Only China seems to be a lot less evil as of late.


i have this strange suspicion you are just a troll from all the ignorance and hate in your post.   i certainly hope that you are a troll anyways... 


I agree. Troll to the max.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".


There are 31 mosques in Alabama.  Some of which are in fact more othrdox mosques.  I'd guess that most of their attendee's haven't been shot. 


You missed the original point, which was despite laws to protect religious institutions in highly fundamentalist areas, there is still going to be the one religious whackjob out there to do something to the contrary, whether it's Alabama OR Tehran.


Except... I didn't.  Again your either not reading or intentionally strawmaning.

Note the bolded part in my above statement.  If that was your original point then your answer to the avove question should of been "Yes I was trying to say something equally stupid."

Instead though it just sounds more like you were being serious and are now trying to bail.



Around the Network
TheLivingShadow said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.

It's a different case with Palestine actually. They aren't seperatists so much as an occupied people - no state claims that Palestine is a sovereign part of Israel. As such countries that are afraid of the idea of seperatism such as China, Russia or Spain can feel much more comfortable about a Palestinian state.

Ask the Basque seperatists if there is a difference.   They will say no.

There really isn't any difference at all.  In general Palesetine support is mostly just based around the same NAM stuff as usual, which is, be against stuff the US is for and will Veto anyway, because why not.

It's similar to why Julian Assange is sitting in an Ecuadorian embassy right now even though if he did the same thing in equador he'd of been shot long ago.  (Well except that's to thumb it's nose at the British, not US.)

The only people who really remotely care are those adjacent to the issue because of all the refugee camps.

Where the countries actually tend to treat the refugees worse then the Israeli's treat Gaza.

Hey, I'm actually Ecuadorian, and I can point out that while the current president hates irresponsible press (and that's what they are really, things here are very corrupt), nobody has been misterously murdered due to different opinions!

Also, though the government press is way too biased, I would like it if the private press learned to be ethical.

 

http://www.dc4mf.org/en/content/ecuadorian-journalist-shot-dead

Which is just a local corruption case.  

If a Journalist leaked confidential information about equador you don't think they'd be killed for treason?



SlayerRondo said:
the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:

I honestly forgot how bad the holocaust actually was, so just compared it to gaza without thinking about it, which was dumb. But i do know it is a very serious topic.

But back to gaza, operations like this have been going on for years literally. For example, in 2008, 1400 palestinians died from an operation just like the one now, even though only 10 israelis died at that time, which is way over done. And this happened many times, but yet the USA, UK etc. just ignore it, even though it's clearly wrong. Even if i was Israeli, I would condemn the government for doing such horrid acts. 

 

cast lead was different than whats been happening with pillar of w/e they are calling it.   ideally they dont even want to go in at all.  they can exert much greater precision and control with air strikes and the like.   with the iron dome in place they might not even need to go in because they can stop so many of the rockets that threaten them.   the most probable way for a civilian(in gaza) to die in this conflict is from seconadary explosions (militants store weapons in residential areas, the israelis use low explosive weapons because they dont need to use stronger ones.  it hits the weapons the weapons blow up thus damaging a great deal more than the missile could ) or from militant rockets and mortars falling short.

israel also wants to avoid a ground offensive because of egypt being controlled by hamas friends in the muslim brotherhood.  one of their initial targets was the head of the hamas military wing.  guy was a terrorist war criminal.  he was even responsible for the brutalisation of fatah in gaza, so i dont imagine abbas is all that upset about it.

this was all set off by an anti tank rocket hitting an israeli jeep on the border injuring three soldiers escalating up to this point.   in 48 hours before the operation over 100 rockets were fired into israel.

Yeah it is a hard situation they have to work with, every country around them, wants them gone. It doesn't take too much to start a great in the middle east at the moment does it. The general Arab ignorance and Israeli overeaction in campaigns just make it worse

It's hard to call it an overreaction when no other country in the world is put under similar circumstances that they are. The gaza strip where these terrorist launch rockets into isreal are in need of international intervention since they clearly cant take care of themselves.

It certainly has the power to be an overeaction. It seems, the situation is firmly in Israel's hands meaning it can do as it wishes without anyone saying a thing. But i doubt international intervention would happen in Gaza, even though its peacekeepers jobs to do that



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:

First off.  You clearly didn't read my post, at least not correctly.   Secondly, you didn't read your own post.  I'd suggest going back and rereading them... but to put it succinctly.

There are groups in the UN that specifically vote against everything the US votes for, no matter how petty.  That's not an assumption.  There support never changed really.  It was mostly anti-american because it was the cold war.  Then when the cold war stopped.  Most of those nations were still pretty anti-american.

Secondly, Europe has nothing to do with being anti-american.  That was a completely different point... the shift with Europe was mostly due to demografic changes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/europes-trouble-with-jews.html?pagewanted=all

Is a simple enough primer.

 

Thirdly, you said their methods were getting more extreme.  Not their land grabbing.  Their methods have been muted as of late.   Espeically muted as they lost support.  

Additionally, when they unilaterally pulled back and shut down a number of settlements.   They were losing support.


So your assumptions on these points are both wrong.   You've made far more assumptions then I have.


You're making an illogical conclusion based on visible results. It's like looking at a black box, inputting a few tests and then coming to the unreasonable conclusion that it's a logical NOT operator, without any thoughts towards the inner workings of the black box. The results say that said states have always voted against America. Does that mean they will ALWAYS vote against them in all stances, or the fact that the inputs observes happen to coincidentally cause a conflict in opinion? To say the state is a simple logical NOT operator is the same as saying the state is simple.

On the European front, this is the classic retort to any criticism of Israel; just call them anti-Semetic. Ignore the fact that the left consistently denounces all sorts of opression, including the holocaust. Once again, it's the black box fallacy. Anything coming out that doesn't support Israel is anti-Semetic. It doesn't matter about the inner workings that determined the outcome. 

Oh, so you do agree that, as a response to loss of support, their settlement rate has dropped? Don't you think that there is some kind of logic behind that, and not just "well let's see if we get support back by stopping this". There would most likely have been foreign communication as to WHY they have lost support, and acted accordingly. You pretty much just admitted that there was most likely a shift in support against Israel BECAUSE of the settlements.

You obviously don't understand the concepts of how logic and predictability coincide. Allow me to explain. Your assumptions occured at the top level, so in other words, the assumption had to bridge a bigger gap. My assumptions involve plotting known facts, decaying a hop to it's own reasoning and working recursively from there. So in other words, while I may have made a few assumptions to your one, the distance of my total assumption is a lot less, since yours spanned the initial reason to begin with. You already agreed that support was being lost from Israel. You just admitted then that, as of late the rate of occupation has been decreasing, most likely bacause of lost support (you said it, not me). Join the pieces we know, don't just jump over the whole issue with one mere assumption.

Except the problem is.  You aren't using known facts.   Your base assumptions are incorrect the data your putting in is incorrect.

Again Israel's largest losses of support in europe have been most recently.   Actually around the times where it pulled back on settlments and have been more moderate in nature.

The new push for settlements has really only happened since loss of that support.

 

The new changes to extreme actions have actuallly been a response to losing that support when they "do everything right."


Except they aren't doing everything right, or else we wouldn't be talking about this.

To add to it, I merely gave settlements as an EXAMPLE. It could have been any multitude of things that conflicts with foreign policy of said states, but surely you're not backing up the claim that "the muslims are infiltrating Western europe" as a sound cause over that, are you?


Not currently they aren't.  However, again, read the post.  They WERE doing everything right.  In 2005.  What they got was cooling attitudes towards them and rockets fired at them from hamas.  There policies at the time were overly concealtaroy, and it made no difference.

As for "muslims infilitraiting western europe" that's a hilariously drastic and strawman way to say "Natural immigration changing political opinioons".  The only arabic people i know who support Israel are Catholics.

All it takes is the GOP's slowly but surely changes and soon final change in illegal immigration, or the Democrats change before it... to see the effects an immigrating population's ability to change policy.


My original gripe was your quote regarding "other states are for Palestine because it's anti-American", but in terms of natural immigration changing political options, this is, in a way, referring to other states' foreign policies. However, it seems a little too coincidental that said states would develop an opposition towards Israel at the same time because their stances changed at the same time. Besides, are you telling me that these immigrants are moving to western Europe, seizing power there and using it to denounce Israel? What percentage of immigration is required for such a feat.....across all western european nations?

I have an idea what you're going to say next, but my suggestion is, tread lightly. Don't go making any kind of statements that can translate to western european nations as being idiots or anything...



Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".


There are 31 mosques in Alabama.  Some of which are in fact more othrdox mosques.  I'd guess that most of their attendee's haven't been shot. 


You missed the original point, which was despite laws to protect religious institutions in highly fundamentalist areas, there is still going to be the one religious whackjob out there to do something to the contrary, whether it's Alabama OR Tehran.


Except... I didn't.  Again your either not reading or intentionally strawmaning.

Note the bolded part in my above statement.  If that was your original point then your answer to the avove question should of been "Yes I was trying to say something equally stupid."

Instead though it just sounds more like you were being serious and are now trying to bail.

Nope. The way you said it was that I was being just as ignorant to the fact, when in fact it was to highlight the bigot's stupidity through means of role reversal.

Saying "trying to make an equally stupid comment" means something different altogether...



fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".


There are 31 mosques in Alabama.  Some of which are in fact more othrdox mosques.  I'd guess that most of their attendee's haven't been shot. 


You missed the original point, which was despite laws to protect religious institutions in highly fundamentalist areas, there is still going to be the one religious whackjob out there to do something to the contrary, whether it's Alabama OR Tehran.


Except... I didn't.  Again your either not reading or intentionally strawmaning.

Note the bolded part in my above statement.  If that was your original point then your answer to the avove question should of been "Yes I was trying to say something equally stupid."

Instead though it just sounds more like you were being serious and are now trying to bail.

Nope. The way you said it was that I was being just as ignorant to the fact, when in fact it was to highlight the bigot's stupidity through means of role reversal.

Saying "trying to make an equally stupid comment" means something different altogether...

You mean... role reversal by intentionally trying to say something equally stupid?

 

A lot of your problems in this thread seem to be caused by a lack of reading things.