By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

fordy on 16 November 2012
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:

First off.  You clearly didn't read my post, at least not correctly.   Secondly, you didn't read your own post.  I'd suggest going back and rereading them... but to put it succinctly.

There are groups in the UN that specifically vote against everything the US votes for, no matter how petty.  That's not an assumption.  There support never changed really.  It was mostly anti-american because it was the cold war.  Then when the cold war stopped.  Most of those nations were still pretty anti-american.

Secondly, Europe has nothing to do with being anti-american.  That was a completely different point... the shift with Europe was mostly due to demografic changes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/europes-trouble-with-jews.html?pagewanted=all

Is a simple enough primer.

 

Thirdly, you said their methods were getting more extreme.  Not their land grabbing.  Their methods have been muted as of late.   Espeically muted as they lost support.  

Additionally, when they unilaterally pulled back and shut down a number of settlements.   They were losing support.


So your assumptions on these points are both wrong.   You've made far more assumptions then I have.


You're making an illogical conclusion based on visible results. It's like looking at a black box, inputting a few tests and then coming to the unreasonable conclusion that it's a logical NOT operator, without any thoughts towards the inner workings of the black box. The results say that said states have always voted against America. Does that mean they will ALWAYS vote against them in all stances, or the fact that the inputs observes happen to coincidentally cause a conflict in opinion? To say the state is a simple logical NOT operator is the same as saying the state is simple.

On the European front, this is the classic retort to any criticism of Israel; just call them anti-Semetic. Ignore the fact that the left consistently denounces all sorts of opression, including the holocaust. Once again, it's the black box fallacy. Anything coming out that doesn't support Israel is anti-Semetic. It doesn't matter about the inner workings that determined the outcome. 

Oh, so you do agree that, as a response to loss of support, their settlement rate has dropped? Don't you think that there is some kind of logic behind that, and not just "well let's see if we get support back by stopping this". There would most likely have been foreign communication as to WHY they have lost support, and acted accordingly. You pretty much just admitted that there was most likely a shift in support against Israel BECAUSE of the settlements.

You obviously don't understand the concepts of how logic and predictability coincide. Allow me to explain. Your assumptions occured at the top level, so in other words, the assumption had to bridge a bigger gap. My assumptions involve plotting known facts, decaying a hop to it's own reasoning and working recursively from there. So in other words, while I may have made a few assumptions to your one, the distance of my total assumption is a lot less, since yours spanned the initial reason to begin with. You already agreed that support was being lost from Israel. You just admitted then that, as of late the rate of occupation has been decreasing, most likely bacause of lost support (you said it, not me). Join the pieces we know, don't just jump over the whole issue with one mere assumption.

Except the problem is.  You aren't using known facts.   Your base assumptions are incorrect the data your putting in is incorrect.

Again Israel's largest losses of support in europe have been most recently.   Actually around the times where it pulled back on settlments and have been more moderate in nature.

The new push for settlements has really only happened since loss of that support.

 

The new changes to extreme actions have actuallly been a response to losing that support when they "do everything right."


Except they aren't doing everything right, or else we wouldn't be talking about this.

To add to it, I merely gave settlements as an EXAMPLE. It could have been any multitude of things that conflicts with foreign policy of said states, but surely you're not backing up the claim that "the muslims are infiltrating Western europe" as a sound cause over that, are you?



Around the Network
fordy on 16 November 2012
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".



TheEvilBanana on 16 November 2012
spurgeonryan said:

Seems like every week there is some sort of problem with Isreal. Either they are attacking someone or someone is attacking them. Verbally and physically.

 

No one seems to like them, and they seem to like very little themselves.

Should America finally break ties? What is a good solution for the Isreal/World situation?


Israel needs to be whiped off the face of the earth. More info:

http://www.666blacksun.org/



TheEvilBanana on 16 November 2012
jonnybmk said:

Judaism as a religion does not tell you to kill people that do not believe in it.

The murderous cult Islam does tell you to do that. How did it get the name "Religion of Peace"?

Man, you're treading on thin ice here,

-Mr Khan


Bullshit. You've obviously never read through most of the bible. The whole thing is about Jews killing off people of other religions. First born sons, men, and their wives... You are so misguided it is sad. Judaism, christianity, and islam are all equally bad in my humble opinion.



TheLivingShadow on 16 November 2012
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.

It's a different case with Palestine actually. They aren't seperatists so much as an occupied people - no state claims that Palestine is a sovereign part of Israel. As such countries that are afraid of the idea of seperatism such as China, Russia or Spain can feel much more comfortable about a Palestinian state.

Ask the Basque seperatists if there is a difference.   They will say no.

There really isn't any difference at all.  In general Palesetine support is mostly just based around the same NAM stuff as usual, which is, be against stuff the US is for and will Veto anyway, because why not.

It's similar to why Julian Assange is sitting in an Ecuadorian embassy right now even though if he did the same thing in equador he'd of been shot long ago.  (Well except that's to thumb it's nose at the British, not US.)

The only people who really remotely care are those adjacent to the issue because of all the refugee camps.

Where the countries actually tend to treat the refugees worse then the Israeli's treat Gaza.

Hey, I'm actually Ecuadorian, and I can point out that while the current president hates irresponsible press (and that's what they are really, things here are very corrupt), nobody has been misterously murdered due to different opinions!

Also, though the government press is way too biased, I would like it if the private press learned to be ethical.



Around the Network
menx64 on 16 November 2012

Maybe is because I am from a country with no army, I have never seen a real gun with my very own eyes (edit, maybe a policeman carrying one, I guess), nor even a bullet, but any person who can attack and kill innocent people is beyond any words... Not even in my mother tongue I can find a word to describe the way I feel when I see children being kill for the fucking sake of any political/religion thing... How is that people can live with that on their shoulders? I am sure I wouldn't be able to handle that feeling, I would rather die myself than killing children... I will never wish anyone to die or anything, but that massacre needs to be stopped somehow. Politicians don't shoot, normal people do, but I guess their leaders are gods of brain washing... I will shed a tear for all those innocent people who have passed away, or will, given that not even a forum can make their minds and instead of defending parties, you should be condemning this denigrating actions...
If you think I am an idiot, I don't care, just look at the picture I am posting and tell me you don't feel they way I do. Pls be honest I don't want to talk to anyone who has words to defend this nonsense...

http://icomputers.co.il/ -> scroll down

Edit: I am not posting the picture, because I don't know if that goes against posting rules or anything...



Menx64

3DS code: 1289-8222-7215

NNid: Menx064

MrBubbles on 16 November 2012
menx64 said:
Maybe is because I am from a country with no army, I have never seen a real gun with my very own eyes (edit, maybe a policeman carrying one, I guess), nor even a bullet, but any person who can attack and kill innocent people is beyond any words... Not even in my mother tongue I can find a word to describe the way I feel when I see children being kill for the fucking sake of any political/religion thing... How is that people can live with that on their shoulders? I am sure I wouldn't be able to handle that feeling, I would rather die myself than killing children... I will never wish anyone to die or anything, but that massacre needs to be stopped somehow. Politicians don't shoot, normal people do, but I guess their leaders are gods of brain washing... I will shed a tear for all those innocent people who have passed away, or will, given that not even a forum can make their minds and instead of defending parties, you should be condemning this denigrating actions...
If you think I am an idiot, I don't care, just look at the picture I am posting and tell me you don't feel they way I do. Pls be honest I don't want to talk to anyone who has words to defend this nonsense...

http://icomputers.co.il/ -> scroll down

Edit: I am not posting the picture, because I don't know if that goes against posting rules or anything...


the israeli army isnt even fighting(air force and navy).   whoever posted that is lying.   there are only 19 dead on the gazan side so far, even.

and no...why in the world would tehy just attack a group of at least 116  people that were gathered? or why would such a group even be gathered.  i dont think you are an idiot...i think you are a fool to believe whatever you read on a random(and clearly biased)  site.

 

5 of the dead gazans are claimed to be children by the gazan health officials (who arent known for their truth telling but i see no reason to dispute it, because of the high amount of youths in gaza)

and i think 1 of the dead israelis was a kid

i couldnt tell you how they died but it wasnt a single attack somewhere.  likely from secondary explosions from stored munitions in gaza or from short falling militant rocket/mortars.  its plausible one was near a launcher or with one of the commanders that was targeted but the most likely cause is from exploding storage since they tend to be in residential areas.  even less likely, but not entirely impossible,  was a mistargeted israeli missile hitting a home near some target.  

i think the amount of strikes and the minimal deaths clearly demonstrates that they are not targeting civilians in any way.

 

edit: im actually kinda reconsidering the idiot part because of your use of the word massacre, which is frankly beyond stupid imo.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

Kasz216 on 16 November 2012
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".


There are 31 mosques in Alabama.  Some of which are in fact more othrdox mosques.  I'd guess that most of their attendee's haven't been shot. 



fordy on 16 November 2012
Kasz216 said:
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?


If three British guys driving cars with left leaning slogans couldn't make it 30km into Alabama without being chased out, I'd REALLY like to see evidence to people doing this "all the time".


There are 31 mosques in Alabama.  Some of which are in fact more othrdox mosques.  I'd guess that most of their attendee's haven't been shot. 


You missed the original point, which was despite laws to protect religious institutions in highly fundamentalist areas, there is still going to be the one religious whackjob out there to do something to the contrary, whether it's Alabama OR Tehran.



the2real4mafol on 16 November 2012
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
the2real4mafol said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles; so the holocaust excuses everything Israel does to someone else? That's an old and weak argument.


no one made that argument but you can continue to delude youself if you wish to be an ignoramus.


I hardly consider myself the ignorant party in this discussion. Insults aside; it was your intention to raise sympathy and have people look away from Israeli terror actions by posting that image, that much was clear. Its justification. Two wrongs does make a right etc.


it was pretty clear even to the person i posted the image to, that my problem was making comparisons between the this situation and that of the holocaust.   do you know why?   probably not...for reasons i stated already.   

are you even that much better than me for what i said earlier, i don't think you are not at all, for what you and the photo said, lets accept we both went a bit too far on that one. You clearly believe in an "eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth".

But I still think Israel goes too far itself. Palestine injured a few people with a missile, while Israel retaliates with a full strike killing 100's of INNOCENT citizens. don't you see a problem there? That sort of reaction is terrorism but somehow it is acceptable for them to do this. And this sort of thing has been going on for years, seriously how many people on both sides must die before a solution is made?

i actually have no idea what point you are making?   i thought your comment innapropriate and im tired of the comparisons between the palestinians and everyone who suffered the atrocites (which extend beyond just the jews) or how gaza is a concentraction camp and all the other bs.   it annoyed me and i showed you actual suffering of the holocaust.   because its not something that should be talked about lightly or just tossed about.  (also some of your alleged facts are wrong, but w/e).   i accepted that you didnt mean to use it in such a way and passed over your comment entirely to let it drop. 

ps.  yes i am better than you and it has nothing at all to do with this.  or anything at all even remotely related.  

pps.  the total fatalities in gaza are still sitting under 20 since the start of this operation  and theyve made a couple hundred strikes and the iron dome has successfully intercepted over a 100 rockets that were heading towards populated areas.

here is the iron dome in action successfully protecting civilians http://youtu.be/8kAyqbKwd1o

ppps.  no one needs to die.  if hamas and their sick brethren in gaza  didnt want to murder all the jews then no one would be dying right now.

I honestly forgot how bad the holocaust actually was, so just compared it to gaza without thinking about it, which was dumb. But i do know it is a very serious topic.

But back to gaza, operations like this have been going on for years literally. For example, in 2008, 1400 palestinians died from an operation just like the one now, even though only 10 israelis died at that time, which is way over done. And this happened many times, but yet the USA, UK etc. just ignore it, even though it's clearly wrong. Even if i was Israeli, I would condemn the government for doing such horrid acts. 

 

cast lead was different than whats been happening with pillar of w/e they are calling it.   ideally they dont even want to go in at all.  they can exert much greater precision and control with air strikes and the like.   with the iron dome in place they might not even need to go in because they can stop so many of the rockets that threaten them.   the most probable way for a civilian(in gaza) to die in this conflict is from seconadary explosions (militants store weapons in residential areas, the israelis use low explosive weapons because they dont need to use stronger ones.  it hits the weapons the weapons blow up thus damaging a great deal more than the missile could ) or from militant rockets and mortars falling short.

israel also wants to avoid a ground offensive because of egypt being controlled by hamas friends in the muslim brotherhood.  one of their initial targets was the head of the hamas military wing.  guy was a terrorist war criminal.  he was even responsible for the brutalisation of fatah in gaza, so i dont imagine abbas is all that upset about it.

this was all set off by an anti tank rocket hitting an israeli jeep on the border injuring three soldiers escalating up to this point.   in 48 hours before the operation over 100 rockets were fired into israel.

Yeah it is a hard situation they have to work with, every country around them, wants them gone. It doesn't take too much to start a great in the middle east at the moment does it. The general Arab ignorance and Israeli overeaction in campaigns just make it worse



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018