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Forums - Politics - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

jonnybmk on 15 November 2012
gergroy said:
jonnybmk said:
fordy said:

ROFL. they reported bigotry in the media, so it's true.

Take your pick. If you have the choice between tolerance and bigotry and you CHOOSE bigotry, it only makes YOU look like the dickhead.

I choose facts.

Atrocities commited by Muslims in the name of allah are not the work of the media.

In the United States, the last thing the liberal media is going to do is paint Islam in a negative fashion.

Muslims will continue to slaughter innocents and the world will look away in fear of "offending" them. They will continue to push their agenda of murder and annihilation and people will still continue to say, "Well, wouldn't you do the same?" as if murder and genocide can be justified.

A sad reality.

First of all, clean up your quotes man.  

Secondly, there are plenty of atrocities commited by christians in the name of Jesus, should we condemn all of christianity for the actions of the few?  The vast majority of muslims are peaceful people that don't want anything to do with violence.  

You are imposing the radical ideology of extremists and terrorists onto the entire body of a religious and ethnic group and the reality is very different.  


I disagree.

I believe that 99% of Muslims support all of the violence and murder that takes place in the name of Islam even though most of the violence and muder is committed by a smaller percentage.



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fordy on 15 November 2012
jonnybmk said:

I choose facts.

Atrocities commited by Muslims in the name of allah are not the work of the media.

In the United States, the last thing the liberal media is going to do is paint Islam in a negative fashion.

Muslims will continue to slaughter innocents and the world will look away in fear of "offending" them. They will continue to push their agenda of murder and annihilation and people will still continue to say, "Well, wouldn't you do the same?" as if murder and genocide can be justified.

A sad reality.


I'm sorry, is it a fact that ALL Muslims are murderers? So if you can prove to me that ALL Muslims have partaken in killings, then I'll agree with you. Otherwise, what you're saying is nothing more than a bigoted generalisation.

You know, there was this fellow named Adolf Hitler. I'm sure you heard of him. You see, he caused the genocide of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Seculatrists, etc, and build an Aryan state, all in the name of God. Does this give us the right to say "Well all christians are nothing but Jew gassers and have more blood on their hands than any religion". What about the Crusades? We can say that Christians like to kill in the name of God. Forget all about the GOOD Christians in the world, no, let's focus on the fundamentalists that do all the bad, and then let's see if the good Christians become offended.

You're trying to push me into saying I like Islam. I think all religions are stupid bullshit, but to blindly come on here and say "well Muslims are the bad one and Christians/Jews are innocent", is absolute hypocrisy. If someone DID go the other way and start generalising Christians or Jews, you'd see me defending them, too.

What you're failing to see is that a defense for Palestine is NOT supporting Islam. There are other factors at play, such as opression and apartheidism (which is what I'm arguing about). Bringing religion into this debate just outlined your bigotry to the entire forum.



deskpro2k3 on 15 November 2012

You guys are mistaking Taliban for Muslims.

 

that deserves a slap in the face



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fordy on 15 November 2012

Well there goes my fun of stripping down bigotry...

He got banned for something completely unrelated.



gergroy on 15 November 2012
fordy said:
Well there goes my fun of stripping down bigotry...

He got banned for something completely unrelated.


lol, I was just joining in too.  However, I don't know if it is ever possible to get somebody to realize their own bigotry over the internet...  these conversations just end up going around in circles...



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Mummelmann on 15 November 2012

Most muslims don't even care that much about religion, most of the ones I know are hardly religious, its more tradition and respect for the family, kind of like when we attend baptisms, weddings and confirmations.
Especially younger muslims are not very religious.

This is not something I read on Wikipedia or got told by media, I used to work at a refugee center and I have many muslim colleagues as well. Overall, second and third generation immigrants and refugees here care little for religion and, indeed, the Middle East.



fordy on 15 November 2012
Mummelmann said:
Most muslims don't even care that much about religion, most of the ones I know are hardly religious, its more tradition and respect for the family, kind of like when we attend baptisms, weddings and confirmations.
Especially younger muslims are not very religious.

This is not something I read on Wikipedia or got told by media, I used to work at a refugee center and I have many muslim colleagues as well. Overall, second and third generation immigrants and refugees here care little for religion and, indeed, the Middle East.


Some say that as lifestyle and comfort progress, religion can become less relevant in one's life. 

When you're being driven out of your home and cannot find anyone to help you, what would many people do? They seek refuge in god.



MrBubbles on 16 November 2012

some stats(since the start of the israeli operation):

- ~350 targets struck by israel (drones/planes/navy)
- over 130 iron dome intercepts (slightly old number at the time im writing this, iron dome is purported to have an intercept rate of 90%)
-3 dead israelis



-over 450 gazan rockets (including at least 3 iranian Fajr-5, which are larger more powerful rockets capable of hitting tel aviv [2 landed in the sea and one in an empty area short of the city])
-19 dead gazans
- estimated 12000 rockets in the gaza strip



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Kasz216 on 16 November 2012
fordy said:
Kasz216 said:

First off.  You clearly didn't read my post, at least not correctly.   Secondly, you didn't read your own post.  I'd suggest going back and rereading them... but to put it succinctly.

There are groups in the UN that specifically vote against everything the US votes for, no matter how petty.  That's not an assumption.  There support never changed really.  It was mostly anti-american because it was the cold war.  Then when the cold war stopped.  Most of those nations were still pretty anti-american.

Secondly, Europe has nothing to do with being anti-american.  That was a completely different point... the shift with Europe was mostly due to demografic changes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/europes-trouble-with-jews.html?pagewanted=all

Is a simple enough primer.

 

Thirdly, you said their methods were getting more extreme.  Not their land grabbing.  Their methods have been muted as of late.   Espeically muted as they lost support.  

Additionally, when they unilaterally pulled back and shut down a number of settlements.   They were losing support.


So your assumptions on these points are both wrong.   You've made far more assumptions then I have.


You're making an illogical conclusion based on visible results. It's like looking at a black box, inputting a few tests and then coming to the unreasonable conclusion that it's a logical NOT operator, without any thoughts towards the inner workings of the black box. The results say that said states have always voted against America. Does that mean they will ALWAYS vote against them in all stances, or the fact that the inputs observes happen to coincidentally cause a conflict in opinion? To say the state is a simple logical NOT operator is the same as saying the state is simple.

On the European front, this is the classic retort to any criticism of Israel; just call them anti-Semetic. Ignore the fact that the left consistently denounces all sorts of opression, including the holocaust. Once again, it's the black box fallacy. Anything coming out that doesn't support Israel is anti-Semetic. It doesn't matter about the inner workings that determined the outcome. 

Oh, so you do agree that, as a response to loss of support, their settlement rate has dropped? Don't you think that there is some kind of logic behind that, and not just "well let's see if we get support back by stopping this". There would most likely have been foreign communication as to WHY they have lost support, and acted accordingly. You pretty much just admitted that there was most likely a shift in support against Israel BECAUSE of the settlements.

You obviously don't understand the concepts of how logic and predictability coincide. Allow me to explain. Your assumptions occured at the top level, so in other words, the assumption had to bridge a bigger gap. My assumptions involve plotting known facts, decaying a hop to it's own reasoning and working recursively from there. So in other words, while I may have made a few assumptions to your one, the distance of my total assumption is a lot less, since yours spanned the initial reason to begin with. You already agreed that support was being lost from Israel. You just admitted then that, as of late the rate of occupation has been decreasing, most likely bacause of lost support (you said it, not me). Join the pieces we know, don't just jump over the whole issue with one mere assumption.

Except the problem is.  You aren't using known facts.   Your base assumptions are incorrect the data your putting in is incorrect.

Again Israel's largest losses of support in europe have been most recently... around the last 7-10 years  

Actually around the times where it pulled back on settlments and have been more moderate in nature.  I mean, you are aware that in 2005 it forcibly removed settlers from all of the gaza settlmenets right?  This was followed up by hamas launching hundreds of rockets at them in increased number taking it as a sign of weakness.

 

The new push for settlements has really only happened since loss of that Europeon support.

The new changes to extreme actions have actuallly been a response to losing that support even when they "do everything right."



Kasz216 on 16 November 2012
fordy said:
jonnybmk said:
Mr Khan said:
jonnybmk said:
I have a question for the people in here that have really good backgrounds on this stuff:

Are Muslims nations/societies free? Free in the way that we think of being "free"?

Some. Turkey arguably tilts more in the opposite direction, where Turkish society has elements that try to repress Islam more than a Muslim group oppressing others. The United Arab Emirates is fairly tolerant (they would have to be: 75% of their society is immigrants, and they have large Christian and Hindu populations, though still majority Muslim). Indonesia has done pretty good since they got rid of Suharto, and Malaysia's making strides.

Forewardness or backwardness really has nothing to do with a country's religious background. Germany, the birthplace of protestant Christianity, had militant monarchism and then, of course, Nazism. Most of Catholic Europe embraced Fascism, and Orthodoxy has been perceived to have an "anti-democratic" tradition. It's all about economic development: the more developed you are, the more tolerant and free you are. There's a reason that the rise of democracy in Western Europe coincides with the post-Columbus era, when Europe really began to pull ahead of the rest of the world. One can look at the Russian Empire, which was given a chance at democracy and fell to Communism, while their second chance at democracy is (sort of) sticking

Of course, we see the Muslim world "abuse" the freedom of democracy, by voting in the restrictions of Islam, but that happened all over the world as well. The French Revolution of 1848 was defeated by the fact that the freshly-enfranchised peasants, totally under the sway of the Catholic Church, voted themselves back into monarchism (a la Louis Napoleon III)

In time, freedom will grow there as well. Part of the problem is much of the wealth in the Middle East is plundered by the upper class (the nature of an extraction-based economy).


Could I walk down the streets of Tehran wearing an American flag tshirt with a Holy Bible in my hand and not be murdered for it based on Muslim "religious" laws?

 

Actually, Iran's laws state tolerance to all religions, but it does recognise Islam as the state religion.

Could you walk around Alabama wearing a turban, beard and speaking Arabic and not get shot?


Yes.  People do it all the time.  Or was the point you were trying to make an equally stupid comment?