lilbroex said: I was off with Uncharted. I thought it was a bigger game given all the hype I remember. How much was Killzone 2?

I don't know.  I don't really know what we're discussing anymore.  Lets just leave it here.

Sal.Paradise said: lilbroex said: Sal.Paradise said: I knew you'd use the ambiguous wording to your advantage. I guess 'upwards of' can mean anything you want it to.  Now, find me a source about the budget of two of the games you specified, Uncharted 2 and Heavy Rain. ....I'll save you the trouble, Uncharted 2 cost $20 million to make. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/uncharted-sequel-costing-usd-20-million So if you did actually know what you were talking about, your 'upwards of 50 million' is referring to games that cost less than half of that to make. I'm the one skewing statements...gotcha. There is nothing ambiguous about it. If I meant it was absolutely 50 Million then that is what I would have said. I overstimated what was done with the Uncharted. I though it was a bigger than than it is. That still falls into lines with the general cost I listed for PS3 games and the rest were accurate. Nothing cost 20 million to make on the Wii. It doesn't fall into line with the statement you were arguing at this time, which is upwards of 50 million. And as for Heavy Rain, I can't find any source for its development cost, we only know it sold far more than expected, so you were obviously bluffing with that one too. Good to know.

It wasn't a bluff, it was a guess/estimate. I never claimed to know the exact cost as that wasn't important. It was analogy to point out that the dev costs on the PS3 were much higher than on the Wii and that a lot of devs couldn't afford it leading to them going out of business. That is one of the primary points of this thread and it still stands.

Barozi said: In an interview with someone from Silicon Knights, they said that Too Human was around $30m or $35m. Can't quite remember but it was much lower than the rumored budget and certainly lower than $50m. EDIT: and you're certainly right about the rest.

Interesting, I hope for their sake that employee was correct...because they're having to pay millions more to Epic in damages from their attempted lawsuit (that I thought they would win). A studio with a lot of talent mired in poor decision making...it's actually a fitting example of many other devs that went bottom up this generation. Bad decisions in a fiercely competitive climate. 

Jay520 said: lilbroex said: killerzX said: Jay520 said: There hasn't been many big name developers that closed in the first place. Most developers that shut down were no name developers. this. there might be like 5 devs that shutdown, that actually produced quality games. False. Hudson, Free Raidcal, Factor 5, THQ(A large amount of their susidiars), Tales Studio, Big Huge Games, Midway, Ignition, 3D Realms, Eidos(most of), Gamelab, Zipper Interactive and a bunch more. Isn't taht comapny that exslusively made Starhawk for Sony going out of business now as well? You're mentioning the studio that developed Starhawk, which only sold a few hundred-thousand units. That begs the question: Just what the Hell is a "big name" developer?

Studio's that make big titles that get advertising and market, as opposed to indie devs and simple devs like Shin'en and the guys who made Geometry Wars(though they went out of business too I think).

miz1q2w3e said: NobleTeam360 said: Doesn't matter now though since the Wii U is HD i guess those stats are irrelevant.  Title reads "this gen". Reported!

Yeah but the two are related so its not off topic. 

NobleTeam360 said: miz1q2w3e said: NobleTeam360 said: Doesn't matter now though since the Wii U is HD i guess those stats are irrelevant.  Title reads "this gen". Reported! Yeah but the two are related so its not off topic.

Wii U is next gen and all reports point to it being even cheaper to develop on than even the PS3/360, on top of being more powerful.

Sal.Paradise said: Barozi said: In an interview with someone from Silicon Knights, they said that Too Human was around $30m or $35m. Can't quite remember but it was much lower than the rumored budget and certainly lower than $50m. EDIT: and you're certainly right about the rest. Interesting, I hope for their sake that employee was correct...because they're having to pay millions more to Epic in damages from their attempted lawsuit (that I thought they would win). A studio with a lot of talent mired in poor decision making...it's actually a fitting example of many other devs that went bottom up this generation. Bad decisions in a fiercely competitive climate.

And one of the biggest bad decisions they could make falls to which console they chose to develop for, hence this thread.

lilbroex said: NobleTeam360 said: miz1q2w3e said: NobleTeam360 said: Doesn't matter now though since the Wii U is HD i guess those stats are irrelevant.  Title reads "this gen". Reported! Yeah but the two are related so its not off topic.  Wii U is next gen and all reports point to it being even cheaper to develop on than even the PS3/360, on top of being more powerful.

True enough. I can't wait to see what Nintendo does first party wise with HD. I wonder if they will make more hardcore games or stick with what they were doing with the Wii. 

lilbroex said: Sal.Paradise said: Barozi said: In an interview with someone from Silicon Knights, they said that Too Human was around $30m or $35m. Can't quite remember but it was much lower than the rumored budget and certainly lower than $50m. EDIT: and you're certainly right about the rest. Interesting, I hope for their sake that employee was correct...because they're having to pay millions more to Epic in damages from their attempted lawsuit (that I thought they would win). A studio with a lot of talent mired in poor decision making...it's actually a fitting example of many other devs that went bottom up this generation. Bad decisions in a fiercely competitive climate.  And one of the biggest bad decisions they could make falls to which console they chose to develop for, hence this thread.

Not at all, (specifically in this case if that's what you're referring to). Too Human's development was one of the most prolonged, expensive and troubled in the history of the industry, and ended up merely a mediocre product in a competetive market. Targeting the 360 with an action-orientated sci fi game was a very sound choice, it was everything surrounding that decision that ruined them. 

lilbroex said: Jay520 said: lilbroex said: killerzX said: Jay520 said: There hasn't been many big name developers that closed in the first place. Most developers that shut down were no name developers. this. there might be like 5 devs that shutdown, that actually produced quality games. False. Hudson, Free Raidcal, Factor 5, THQ(A large amount of their susidiars), Tales Studio, Big Huge Games, Midway, Ignition, 3D Realms, Eidos(most of), Gamelab, Zipper Interactive and a bunch more. Isn't taht comapny that exslusively made Starhawk for Sony going out of business now as well? You're mentioning the studio that developed Starhawk, which only sold a few hundred-thousand units. That begs the question: Just what the Hell is a "big name" developer? Studio's that make big titles that get advertising and market, as opposed to indie devs and simple devs like Shin'en and the guys who made Geometry Wars(though they went out of business too I think).

But Starhawk got virtually no marketing aside from internet marketing. Same goes for most of those developers you mentioned.

In any case though, of course the answer is going to be the HD consoles. Considering the massive number of "big name" HD developers in comparison to "big name" Wii developers, its guaranteed that there would be more HD developers to go out of business, regardless of power. There are so little Wii "big name" developers, that it really would be ridiculous if the Wii had more developers go out of business (or if the Wii had more developers in any category for that matter).