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Forums - Politics Discussion - Ben Stein says that taxes has to be raised on the rich....

Kasz216 on 21 October 2012
johnsobas said:
SamuelRSmith said:
klystron said:
There never was a surplus. It's a myth. It is a surplus based on standard accounting tricks the government uses. Look at the amount of united states debt outstanding per year. It never went down. Not once. Including the late 90s. Look it up. Oh heck, I'll do it for you.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

Look at the numbers. You'll see they never go down. Ever.

Federal government spent over a trillion dollars on 82 means tested welfare programs. That's larger than even the defense budget. Welfare spending up 32% since 2008.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/18/report-welfare-governments-single-largest-budget-item-in-fy-2011-at-approx-1-03-trillion/

The solution is not even to cut spending (though I would love to see welfare eliminated by making any handouts civil debt against the recipients estate.) The solution is economic growth. We have been growing less each year the last several years. Most of the GDP growth has been in government spending.

Realistically you can't just shut it all down at once because sadly too many communities depend on military bases, government offices,etc, but you can slowly ramp it back. It's a balance that has to happen. Clearly making it larger is not working.

The United States won't ever get economic growth until it gets its monetary policy in order (you cannot having investment without savings, and you won't get savings with such low interest rates, and high inflation.), and it won't get its monetary policy in order until it gets its fiscal policy in order (interest rates can't rise, because then the Fed Government cannot afford the debt).

So, if the US wants to go back into prosperity, it first needs to eliminate the Federal deficit, over night. It then needs to work with its borrowers to restructure the debts, and it then needs to severely reduce the unfunded liability (though, there's less time pressure here, but some reductions need t come today).

After all that,  the Fed can allow interest rates to rise, the printing presses will stop, and the dollar will start reclaiming its value. Americans can start saving again, investing, and producing. Jobs will start flowing back into the country, and the trade deficit would also start to diminish.

... but, none of this will happen. At the current path, the ONLY result is hyperinflation, and a totalitarian Government.

I couldn't have said it better myself, this is the exactly the problem and the only way for it to be solved.  The fed has boxed us into a corner with no way out.  Nobody has the guts to face the problem that has been in the making for the last 30-40 years.  they just keep pushing it further into the future and making recovery more and more impossible than it already was.  Nothing can be solved without first defaulting on the debt or at least a very large part it, followed by massive restructuring.  


well technicaly the Fed probably could wipe the federal debt out in one night.  They loaned what... something like 10 trillion secretly to other countries and banks  with debt problems?

  Though that would create some pretty perverse outcomes.

 



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RVDondaPC on 21 October 2012
Kasz216 said:
RVDondaPC said:
Instead of Taxing the Rich the Federal Government should create a "saved the deficit" Monument built on Federal land. Then everyone can volunteer to do their part and donate money to reduce the deficit. Then there can be different plaques or statues dedicated for each tier of person donating depending on how much they donate. If someone donates $1 million or so, they get their own statue. It's a much better way to feed the egos of the super rich rather than tax their money away which makes them angry. I'd also bet a lot of regular middle income people would gladly donate $20 or so and feel good about themselves to help the cause.

All politicians argue about taxes which just gets people upset or angry, no one ever talks about donating which invokes feel good emotions. I think they under estimate the power of people wanting to do good.

Of course taxes are never really about the deficit anyways. It's just two sides arguing for themselves. The deficit is just an argument tactic for each side to further their cause.


Nah.  Those rich people would probably just promote their time to help the poor.

Like Bono or Jay-Z.

They could be spending most of their wealth to help people... yet are farily light when it comes to their own pocket books.

The ones who actually tend to care about this stuff are the people who don't want a big deal made about it.

Politics related but honestly a good example is someone like Mit Romney really.  I think I read he gave something like 30% of his income to chairty?  Doesn't even bring it up when people call him a heartless rich dude.

Bill Gates has a huge ass foundation where he does alot of good, but he doesn't actually talk about it much.  They just do stuff.

Not sure what point you are making...



Kasz216 on 21 October 2012
RVDondaPC said:
Kasz216 said:
RVDondaPC said:
Instead of Taxing the Rich the Federal Government should create a "saved the deficit" Monument built on Federal land. Then everyone can volunteer to do their part and donate money to reduce the deficit. Then there can be different plaques or statues dedicated for each tier of person donating depending on how much they donate. If someone donates $1 million or so, they get their own statue. It's a much better way to feed the egos of the super rich rather than tax their money away which makes them angry. I'd also bet a lot of regular middle income people would gladly donate $20 or so and feel good about themselves to help the cause.

All politicians argue about taxes which just gets people upset or angry, no one ever talks about donating which invokes feel good emotions. I think they under estimate the power of people wanting to do good.

Of course taxes are never really about the deficit anyways. It's just two sides arguing for themselves. The deficit is just an argument tactic for each side to further their cause.


Nah.  Those rich people would probably just promote their time to help the poor.

Like Bono or Jay-Z.

They could be spending most of their wealth to help people... yet are farily light when it comes to their own pocket books.

The ones who actually tend to care about this stuff are the people who don't want a big deal made about it.

Politics related but honestly a good example is someone like Mit Romney really.  I think I read he gave something like 30% of his income to chairty?  Doesn't even bring it up when people call him a heartless rich dude.

Bill Gates has a huge ass foundation where he does alot of good, but he doesn't actually talk about it much.  They just do stuff.

Not sure what point you are making...

That appealing to peoples recognition won't be that helpful.

Nor their good will...

 

Paying for the government's debt is like paying for a gambling addicts gambling debts....

while said addict is placing a new line of bets for today's games.



mike_intellivision on 21 October 2012

Actually,the point of all of this is that Stein is a prominent conservative voice and he is disagreeing with the stance of the Republican (US conservative) party.

Mike from Morgantown



      


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MDMAlliance on 21 October 2012
Kasz216 said:
MDMAlliance said:
klystron said:

With all due respect to Dr. Stein, I suggest he and you all watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ and see why the rich don't have enough money to run our bloated government.


That video you linked, that guy is twisting things a lot and obviously has some kind of superiority complex.  So many things were neglected in that video that it's stupid.  One obvious thing that is missing is pretty much any form of tax coming from anywhere else.  Where does sales tax go?  Where does everyone elses taxes go?  What about all the other taxes that we have that aren't just taxes on corporations and income?  Also, those numbers he mentioned ARE significant.  Significant enough to the point where balancing the increase of taxes with cuts in spending where they are questionable could pull us out of a deficit.  That video is overly biased.

edit: also when he mentioned the military, he should have doubled the amount due to the fact that if that were to happen, the deficit would have decreased by that same amount, in theory.


Most of that like sales goes to the individual  states... and therefore has no relation to the federal budget.


I know I know, it was late when I posted this.  Also my edit is wrong.



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klystron on 21 October 2012
mike_intellivision said:
Actually,the point of all of this is that Stein is a prominent conservative voice and he is disagreeing with the stance of the Republican (US conservative) party.

Mike from Morgantown


I was in Morgantown yesterday and sat in football traffic. Glad WVU lost.

 

Stein was a speechwriter for Nixon who was a huge spender just like George W Bush.

 

I really love how when people say we can solve the deficit we can do so off the backs of the rich. The numbers don't add up. Ever see anyone who says that actually show you the numbers? Of course not.

 

BTW, here's a little example for you all... I do a lot of work on the side for extra money. I actually started turning down work in 2010 because if I did any more I would have started phasing out my wife's education credit (which was expanded up into my income range for 2009 and 2010.) Does that sound like a good way to grow the economy? A tax code that encourages people to work less?



Ail on 21 October 2012
johnsobas said:
SamuelRSmith said:
klystron said:
There never was a surplus. It's a myth. It is a surplus based on standard accounting tricks the government uses. Look at the amount of united states debt outstanding per year. It never went down. Not once. Including the late 90s. Look it up. Oh heck, I'll do it for you.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

Look at the numbers. You'll see they never go down. Ever.

Federal government spent over a trillion dollars on 82 means tested welfare programs. That's larger than even the defense budget. Welfare spending up 32% since 2008.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/18/report-welfare-governments-single-largest-budget-item-in-fy-2011-at-approx-1-03-trillion/

The solution is not even to cut spending (though I would love to see welfare eliminated by making any handouts civil debt against the recipients estate.) The solution is economic growth. We have been growing less each year the last several years. Most of the GDP growth has been in government spending.

Realistically you can't just shut it all down at once because sadly too many communities depend on military bases, government offices,etc, but you can slowly ramp it back. It's a balance that has to happen. Clearly making it larger is not working.

The United States won't ever get economic growth until it gets its monetary policy in order (you cannot having investment without savings, and you won't get savings with such low interest rates, and high inflation.), and it won't get its monetary policy in order until it gets its fiscal policy in order (interest rates can't rise, because then the Fed Government cannot afford the debt).

So, if the US wants to go back into prosperity, it first needs to eliminate the Federal deficit, over night. It then needs to work with its borrowers to restructure the debts, and it then needs to severely reduce the unfunded liability (though, there's less time pressure here, but some reductions need t come today).

After all that,  the Fed can allow interest rates to rise, the printing presses will stop, and the dollar will start reclaiming its value. Americans can start saving again, investing, and producing. Jobs will start flowing back into the country, and the trade deficit would also start to diminish.

... but, none of this will happen. At the current path, the ONLY result is hyperinflation, and a totalitarian Government.

I couldn't have said it better myself, this is the exactly the problem and the only way for it to be solved.  The fed has boxed us into a corner with no way out.  Nobody has the guts to face the problem that has been in the making for the last 30-40 years.  they just keep pushing it further into the future and making recovery more and more impossible than it already was.  Nothing can be solved without first defaulting on the debt or at least a very large part it, followed by massive restructuring.  


What did I say, typical american.

Lets just declare bankrupcy...

Hello to 15$ gas at the pump if you do that ...



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Marks on 21 October 2012

Spending can't be cut to make a meaningful difference? Are you kidding? Say that to Gary Johnson, who has promised a balanced budget his first year in office if elected.



RedInker on 21 October 2012

Taxing the rich is a must. But neither Obama or Romney have the balls to mention this. Ive said this before America has to get its debt down or the country will go pop like Greece and the ramifications will fuck up the whole global economy.



klystron on 21 October 2012
RedInker said:
Taxing the rich is a must. But neither Obama or Romney have the balls to mention this. Ive said this before America has to get its debt down or the country will go pop like Greece and the ramifications will fuck up the whole global economy.


One of the problems with "taxing the rich" is that you must consent to the government to define the meaning of rich. Someday you'll be on the wrong side of that line because the definition will always change. This is why I don't like giving the government the power to draw a line and treat people differently on one side of it or the other.