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Forums - General - Teachers and leaders of American Society need to stop telling our kids to go to College!

NintendoPie on 25 September 2012
spurgeonryan said:
And for all of you saying that education leads to higher IQ. Who cares? Tell me who loses their job during the next recession. What is the Wall street broker going to do then when he does not know how to do anything else. Every kid and his Mother is going for a business degree. We are a nation of Greedy, skill less, lazy, fat humans and the rest of the world is stepping all over us. India, china and South America have our jobs. These Business graduates like Joe the Bro are outsourcing American jobs as we speak to save their company a few percentage points so that they can have a new Mercedes next year or a bonus and a trip to Venice. But some day when the Government cannot give out 500 billion dollars or more in stimulous packages then all those bankers and businessmen and whoever else that should have got a bump will be on the streets scrapping at doors looking for a hand out because they have no skills. They know nothing other than how to balance the books properly.

American Schools need to push skills on to our children. Not just computer skills either. just think what you could fall back on if you had some sort of degree or certification with electronics!

The whole point to College and school is so that we all can work at a different skill. One person is the Business man. One builds the building that the business guy is in. One makes the steak at the Restaraunt they go to later that night.

If we don't have seperate skills then we would fall apart.



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mrstickball on 25 September 2012
Jay520 said:
darkknightkryta said:
mrstickball said:
darkknightkryta said:
mrstickball said:

It also hurts the "Dirty Job" trades, which are being more and more handled by immigrants. That isn't a problem, per-se, but there are a ton of good trade skill based jobs with few people working on them. People don't want to take part in a hard day's labor for a good day's pay. I have a friend that is a president of a machine shop. He can't get anyone to work for him, because the work is 50hrs a week, and pays about $35,000 a year - and he's willing to train anyone that wants to work for him. He keeps telling me that everyone views manual labor as "bad", leading to an adverse effect on the industry.

This is the problem right there.  That pay is not worth that amount of hours.  On top of that, that pay just isn't enough anymore.  Atleast in Canada anyways, you can't live on your own unless you're making 45k a year and even that's pushing it.


1. That was starting wages for a 18 year old. In a few years, it'd be a bit more than that. 

2. Where I live, $35,000 a year is more than enough to sustain a family.

If 35k is enough to sustain your family, then I'll take your word for it, but doesn't change the fact that he should be giving more if he's having trouble finding people.


35k should be fine for an 18 year old. Once he does get around to starting a family, which would probably be 5-15 years, I imagine he would make a fair amount more than that.

My mom and I lived fine off of about $20,000 a year. It wasn't a luxrious life, but it was okay. I'd imagine one person with nearly double that amount should be fine as well.


Exactly. I know very few 18 year olds that make $35,000 a year. Having said that, I know this businessman is paying some employees a lot more. He was telling me that he has been paying a good bit of money for people to go to trade schools to learn new techniques his shops require - full ride on tuition, then pay increases once the tuition is fully paid. Some of his employees are making closer to $80,000 or more.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

richardhutnik on 26 September 2012
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
JoeTheBro said:
I agree with the general idea but not those hogwash ideas in your post. If you don't have the drive to go to college of course you shouldn't go. But if you are on your way to becoming the next Bill Gates, you should not be forced into trade school. And 4 years of a language goes against your main point. If a kid is just going to do construction, he should not be forced to learn German lol.

What is needed is high schoolers get sufficient education to enter into the job market at a competent entry-level position on the higher end.  The college system is now broken.  It produces twice as many graduates as there are positions for, all saddled with debt that doesn't match what the pay is.  I would say to add two more years of technical training on top of high school, to get people ready for the work force.


Working with a lot of kids, I think it'd be better to cut the last year off of HS and add an extra year for trade school or college prep (if they want to go that route).

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.



mrstickball on 26 September 2012
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
JoeTheBro said:
I agree with the general idea but not those hogwash ideas in your post. If you don't have the drive to go to college of course you shouldn't go. But if you are on your way to becoming the next Bill Gates, you should not be forced into trade school. And 4 years of a language goes against your main point. If a kid is just going to do construction, he should not be forced to learn German lol.

What is needed is high schoolers get sufficient education to enter into the job market at a competent entry-level position on the higher end.  The college system is now broken.  It produces twice as many graduates as there are positions for, all saddled with debt that doesn't match what the pay is.  I would say to add two more years of technical training on top of high school, to get people ready for the work force.


Working with a lot of kids, I think it'd be better to cut the last year off of HS and add an extra year for trade school or college prep (if they want to go that route).

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.

Its not surprising. I've said it a thousand times, but looking at bachelor's degree statistics by decade is very eye-opening.

Here's a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp

From 1976-7, approximately 919,000 million degrees were conferred to men and women.

In 1989-90, it was 1,050,000, or an increase of 10,000 degrees per annum.

From 1989-90 to 1999-2000, it jumped to 1,237,000, or an increase of 18,700 degrees per annum (a 87% increase in the growth per annum in just 10 years).

From 1999-20 to 2009-10, it jumped to 1,650,000, or an increase of 41,300 degrees per annum - an increase of 120% in 10 years.

 

What should that tell you? The growth of degrees conferred has ballooned 413% in just 20 years. Just like home ownership, that creates artificially high prices, meaning our students are over-paying and under-recieving when it comes to college. Even worse, the critical STEP degrees are doing horrible. There has been virtually no growth in the number of students in ~30 years. Those are the degrees that *really* matter, as they create technologies that drive our economy forward.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

TheLivingShadow on 27 September 2012
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
JoeTheBro said:
I agree with the general idea but not those hogwash ideas in your post. If you don't have the drive to go to college of course you shouldn't go. But if you are on your way to becoming the next Bill Gates, you should not be forced into trade school. And 4 years of a language goes against your main point. If a kid is just going to do construction, he should not be forced to learn German lol.

What is needed is high schoolers get sufficient education to enter into the job market at a competent entry-level position on the higher end.  The college system is now broken.  It produces twice as many graduates as there are positions for, all saddled with debt that doesn't match what the pay is.  I would say to add two more years of technical training on top of high school, to get people ready for the work force.


Working with a lot of kids, I think it'd be better to cut the last year off of HS and add an extra year for trade school or college prep (if they want to go that route).

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.

Its not surprising. I've said it a thousand times, but looking at bachelor's degree statistics by decade is very eye-opening.

Here's a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp

From 1976-7, approximately 919,000 million degrees were conferred to men and women.

In 1989-90, it was 1,050,000, or an increase of 10,000 degrees per annum.

From 1989-90 to 1999-2000, it jumped to 1,237,000, or an increase of 18,700 degrees per annum (a 87% increase in the growth per annum in just 10 years).

From 1999-20 to 2009-10, it jumped to 1,650,000, or an increase of 41,300 degrees per annum - an increase of 120% in 10 years.

 

What should that tell you? The growth of degrees conferred has ballooned 413% in just 20 years. Just like home ownership, that creates artificially high prices, meaning our students are over-paying and under-recieving when it comes to college. Even worse, the critical STEP degrees are doing horrible. There has been virtually no growth in the number of students in ~30 years. Those are the degrees that *really* matter, as they create technologies that drive our economy forward.

Did you mean to write STEM? Or are you purposedly saying Math isn't useful?



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johnsobas on 27 September 2012
HappySqurriel said:
gergroy said:

so you are cherry picking jobs?  why don't you look at the averages of those with college degrees versus those with high school degrees and lets look at the difference.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

oh look at that, people with college degrees statistically make more, a lot more.  So yeah, we should encourage our students not to want that right?  


The problem is the averages distort the reality quite dramatically ...

For every petroleum engineer that is earning $150,000+ after 10 years there are 11 humanities majors that get their $30,000 salary boosted to the average of $40,000.

College is a great idea if you're career minded and heading into a field that is in demand in the region you live. It is a bad idea if you're going to school to discover your passion.

it's not just that though, a huge percentage of the people who didn't go to college are bums.  That doesn't mean if I don't go to college that i'm a bum and gonna make less money.  Most people who go to college are career minded people, i can still be career minded and not go to college.  However, i would get lumped in the statistic with all the bums anyway.  Not to mention the lost income and student loans along with interest.  



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

johnsobas on 27 September 2012

i should say guys i live in one of the cheapest areas of the US and make around 50k, it's so difficult to find someone to be a truck driver even though it doesn't even require a CDL. You should see the crap employees that constantly come in and out of here, can't even keep this positions full despite the high pay and easy entry.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

mrstickball on 27 September 2012
TheLivingShadow said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
JoeTheBro said:
I agree with the general idea but not those hogwash ideas in your post. If you don't have the drive to go to college of course you shouldn't go. But if you are on your way to becoming the next Bill Gates, you should not be forced into trade school. And 4 years of a language goes against your main point. If a kid is just going to do construction, he should not be forced to learn German lol.

What is needed is high schoolers get sufficient education to enter into the job market at a competent entry-level position on the higher end.  The college system is now broken.  It produces twice as many graduates as there are positions for, all saddled with debt that doesn't match what the pay is.  I would say to add two more years of technical training on top of high school, to get people ready for the work force.


Working with a lot of kids, I think it'd be better to cut the last year off of HS and add an extra year for trade school or college prep (if they want to go that route).

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.

Its not surprising. I've said it a thousand times, but looking at bachelor's degree statistics by decade is very eye-opening.

Here's a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp

From 1976-7, approximately 919,000 million degrees were conferred to men and women.

In 1989-90, it was 1,050,000, or an increase of 10,000 degrees per annum.

From 1989-90 to 1999-2000, it jumped to 1,237,000, or an increase of 18,700 degrees per annum (a 87% increase in the growth per annum in just 10 years).

From 1999-20 to 2009-10, it jumped to 1,650,000, or an increase of 41,300 degrees per annum - an increase of 120% in 10 years.

 

What should that tell you? The growth of degrees conferred has ballooned 413% in just 20 years. Just like home ownership, that creates artificially high prices, meaning our students are over-paying and under-recieving when it comes to college. Even worse, the critical STEP degrees are doing horrible. There has been virtually no growth in the number of students in ~30 years. Those are the degrees that *really* matter, as they create technologies that drive our economy forward.

Did you mean to write STEM? Or are you purposedly saying Math isn't useful?

My apologies. I meant STEM. I knew I was gonna get the ancronym wrong.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Ail on 29 September 2012
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
JoeTheBro said:
I agree with the general idea but not those hogwash ideas in your post. If you don't have the drive to go to college of course you shouldn't go. But if you are on your way to becoming the next Bill Gates, you should not be forced into trade school. And 4 years of a language goes against your main point. If a kid is just going to do construction, he should not be forced to learn German lol.

What is needed is high schoolers get sufficient education to enter into the job market at a competent entry-level position on the higher end.  The college system is now broken.  It produces twice as many graduates as there are positions for, all saddled with debt that doesn't match what the pay is.  I would say to add two more years of technical training on top of high school, to get people ready for the work force.


Working with a lot of kids, I think it'd be better to cut the last year off of HS and add an extra year for trade school or college prep (if they want to go that route).

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.

Its not surprising. I've said it a thousand times, but looking at bachelor's degree statistics by decade is very eye-opening.

Here's a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp

From 1976-7, approximately 919,000 million degrees were conferred to men and women.

In 1989-90, it was 1,050,000, or an increase of 10,000 degrees per annum.

From 1989-90 to 1999-2000, it jumped to 1,237,000, or an increase of 18,700 degrees per annum (a 87% increase in the growth per annum in just 10 years).

From 1999-20 to 2009-10, it jumped to 1,650,000, or an increase of 41,300 degrees per annum - an increase of 120% in 10 years.

 

What should that tell you? The growth of degrees conferred has ballooned 413% in just 20 years. Just like home ownership, that creates artificially high prices, meaning our students are over-paying and under-recieving when it comes to college. Even worse, the critical STEP degrees are doing horrible. There has been virtually no growth in the number of students in ~30 years. Those are the degrees that *really* matter, as they create technologies that drive our economy forward.


That's not how you compute an increase or a rate of growth..

An increase of 120% over 10 years like you write it would mean 2.7 million degrees in 2009-10.

 

 



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

mrstickball on 29 September 2012
Ail said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:

A middle ground that would work is the last year of high school now be training for a trade, and then the following year be an internship where they go into the field.  You end up adding one more year of schooling, but the last one would be work, preferably paid.

I understand colleges are graduating twice as many people as there are positions for.

Its not surprising. I've said it a thousand times, but looking at bachelor's degree statistics by decade is very eye-opening.

Here's a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp

From 1976-7, approximately 919,000 million degrees were conferred to men and women.

In 1989-90, it was 1,050,000, or an increase of 10,000 degrees per annum.

From 1989-90 to 1999-2000, it jumped to 1,237,000, or an increase of 18,700 degrees per annum (a 87% increase in the growth per annum in just 10 years).

From 1999-20 to 2009-10, it jumped to 1,650,000, or an increase of 41,300 degrees per annum - an increase of 120% in 10 years.

 

What should that tell you? The growth of degrees conferred has ballooned 413% in just 20 years. Just like home ownership, that creates artificially high prices, meaning our students are over-paying and under-recieving when it comes to college. Even worse, the critical STEP degrees are doing horrible. There has been virtually no growth in the number of students in ~30 years. Those are the degrees that *really* matter, as they create technologies that drive our economy forward.


That's not how you compute an increase or a rate of growth..

An increase of 120% over 10 years like you write it would mean 2.7 million degrees in 2009-10.

Sure, but I was trying to demonstrate how much the growth of bachelors' degrees have increased using a different model.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.