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Forums - Sony - The Last of Us - Pax Demo - Proof that it's not scripted

M.U.G.E.N said:
crissindahouse said:

no i don't rant all the time, if you post something, i give you an answer, nothing more and nothing less.

i have nothing to do with your discussion, that's also true, that's why i only said one short sentence first, just to say what i think about your post and your discussion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

so, if i'm clueless or not about your history with him,i don't need that for my post because that still stands.

and no, i don't shut up just because you don't like iwhat i have to say. as much as you donÄt shut up if someone else doesn't like what you have to say.

you asked me and I informed your clueless self the reason behind my statement

but yet here we are

I don't 'dislike' what you are saying because you typing a lot that has a lot of 'nothing' in it. The guy who I commented to had no issue but you act like i ran over your dog or something

I won't start ranting like you  in order for someone to ask me to shut up when I am that clueless..at least I would shut up after thigns being explained to me

either way this is tiresome and useless. wanna butt in rant some more? go right ahead. Not gonna read or reply cuz this has gone off topic far enough

and still, i'm not ranting, i just reply to you when you quote me. not sure why you even think that just because i talk with you very friendly. if you don't want to get quoted, don't quote me with a post i "have" to answer to, pretty simple.

and btw, you don't have to use "clueless" in every single post when i explained to you that my knowledge about your discussion in the past with him has nothing to do with what i had to say.

 



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M.U.G.E.N said:
Slimebeast said:

I must admit that I was somewhat wrong earlier when describing this game with "just being heavily scripted", as if it's nothing impressive.

Let me explain. This video still shows that the game is heavily scripted. But, it seems scripted in a sophisticated and complex way, a satisfying way. Dallinor described it accurately on page 2 in this thread what's going on in this game:

Dallinor said:

Wow, the entire gameplay segement is completely different depending on how you approach it. While you can surely approach situations differently in different games, this game seems to have an intricate series of scripted moments that switch according to what you are doing.

The bolded is spot on. ND's approach in this game's design is to use an intricate web of scripts to achieve satisfying AI (or the illusion of AI) and dynamic gameplay.

I have still to hold judgment before more footage is shown or game is released, but now my evaluation is that it's heavily scripted without very much independent enemy AI (compared to a game like MGS Ground Zeroes which definitely will have much more independent and dynamic enemy AI), but it seems so well scripted that it feels dynamic and natural enough for a genuine experience. We will see.

At the moment, after seeing this video, I am quite impressed by the game.

facepalm

dude...you can't be serious


He is, and he's right.  It is heavily scripted.  It's impossible for it not to be.  The exact way he described it was fully correct.   He provided an in depth explanation and all you've been able to retaliate with was insults, and memes.  Congratulations.   Kind of how they described Skyrims AI as dynamic, etc and when in reality it was proven to still be scripted.  Just in an intricate system.



Inevitably one of us is going to get sick of all the trouble coming from this thread and lock it. Just saying.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

BasilZero said:
In the end....dont you think all the games are scripted in some way? Or what do you mean by "scripted"? o.O

Also lol @ OP, too excited xD?


Well yeah, all video games have to be scripted.  Got to tell the engine what to do.  NPCs are the same way.  The guy a page or two back described it perfectly.  Naughty Dog just made a really intricate system to fool people into thinking they were fully dynamic.  I still have yet to see any proof the gameplay is dynamic from the video.  It doesn't look very different from a lot of sneak based games (wrapping arms around someone and using them as a body shield) and looks similar to hitman.  It's dynamic in a sense, but it's still scripted.  Just you can chose different scripted events now, versus having to follow completely into a preselected series of scripts.  If anything I said makes sense.  



errorpwns said:
BasilZero said:
In the end....dont you think all the games are scripted in some way? Or what do you mean by "scripted"? o.O

Also lol @ OP, too excited xD?


Well yeah, all video games have to be scripted.  Got to tell the engine what to do.  NPCs are the same way.  The guy a page or two back described it perfectly.  Naughty Dog just made a really intricate system to fool people into thinking they were fully dynamic.  I still have yet to see any proof the gameplay is dynamic from the video.  It doesn't look very different from a lot of sneak based games (wrapping arms around someone and using them as a body shield) and looks similar to hitman.  It's dynamic in a sense, but it's still scripted.  Just you can chose different scripted events now, versus having to follow completely into a preselected series of scripts.  If anything I said makes sense.  

the thing is that I don't recall naughty dog ever saying that the AI were fully dynamic.  All I remember is Naughty dog saying that the game would be a wide linear game, meaning there are multiple ways to go through parts of the game.  Of course the AI is scripted, but they just have mutliple scripted events that are triggered by what the player does in the game. This is what I got from what I've heard about the game.



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TLOU is definitely scripted. It just has a few more "If/Then" statements in the code than your average linear game. It reminds me of Splinter Cell Conviction. Sam could "interrogate" certain characters. Depending on what what was next to him Sam could smash his face into a mirror, or break a urinal with his head, or just bash him against a wall. It's really not that complicated, it's just time consuming for the developer to animate all those events. Naughty Dog seems to have taken this concept to the limit, but it's not revolutionary.



M.U.G.E.N said:
Slimebeast said:

Hey, what are you implying here?

If you by saying "every game" meant games that are cinematic and directed then you are on the right track though.

The last of us, based on the videos so far, is a step in the right direction though compared to Uncharted. A big step. I like what I see.

Judging from the freedom this latest video suggests combined with the dramatic, tight presentation and graphics, this is like playing a movie, but actually playing the movie instead of passively mostly watching it.

And no, the AI in Last of us does not seem very self aware. It's different from the AI you see in games like Crysis, where anyone can just take a level editor and pick as many Korean soldiers they want and put them anywhere in the world and they will behave and react to their environment in an intelligent way. (then obviously you tie these Soldiers to different kinds of scripts too for dramatic effects, all games do this to at least some extent).


:P I'm just stating my hate for u dang it!

I don't get it..how is it different? (I really am curious here) Am I wrong that both AI are basically the same and in fact AI in tlou is much more complex than games like Crysis? I think ALL AI are scripted/coded to behave in a certain way...depending on the cues they recieve. I do not think there is any other kind of AI in games yet.

but hey like CGi said...you finally gave the game a compliment :P Our efforts in converting you have finally started show an effect! BUHAHAHAHHAHAH

I feel I won't be able to explain this in the best way possible, but I'll try.

There are two principles how you achieve enemies and NPCs to act in a natural and intelligent way with their environments and the player.

It's kind of an external versus internal principle. Scripted versus AI (technically, internal AI is still filled with scripts, but this is the terminology most often used in the game industry - "scripted games" versus "AI focused", or something along that line.)

The internal principle ("AI"). The enemy soldier in Crysis or an NPC in Skyrim has his own advanced senses and personality. He has a specific field of vision, ability to hear, and he reacts on things in his environment (ideally, but this is hard to program, so often you have devs who brag about advanced AI that still turns out to be augmented by tons of simple scripts). You can put one of these anywhere in the world and he will behave in an intelligent manner. This enemy soldier will always be alerted if he hears your footsteps. (obviously you can tie this AI to a bunch of external scripts like you can do with a dumb AI)

The external principle ("script"). You have an enemy that is very basic and dumb, but you tie his behaviour to external triggers - classical scripts - that you have to hand place in the world, typically as invisible lines on the ground. An example: Joel throws a bottle inside the room with bandits who become alerted. Now, the thing is that these guys probably aren't able to hear anything like the soldiers in Crysis, it's just that in this specific scene there's an invisible trigger in that very specific room that activates the alert reaction when Joel throws the bottle. But I would be surprised if you could do the bottle trick anywhere in the world of The last of us, because that would suggest that this reaction is built in into enemy AI.

Now, if well executed you achieve roughly the same illusion of natural and intelligent behaviour with the "intricate script" method as with "internal AI", and that's what I hope with The last of us.

Often the scripted method gives a better sense of realism than internal AI, especially on a first play through. But personally I prefer the built in AI because it's so dynamic and can be surprising (sometimes unintended) and allows re-playability.



kain_kusanagi said:
TLOU is definitely scripted. It just has a few more "If/Then" statements in the code than your average linear game. It reminds me of Splinter Cell Conviction. Sam could "interrogate" certain characters. Depending on what what was next to him Sam could smash his face into a mirror, or break a urinal with his head, or just bash him against a wall. It's really not that complicated, it's just time consuming for the developer to animate all those events. Naughty Dog seems to have taken this concept to the limit, but it's not revolutionary.

" it's not revolutionary "

and no one said it was, all i've seen in this thread is people express their excitement for the new gameplay aspects being revealed

but amazingly there're apparently some people ( not reffering to you ) that are actually disgusted that people may be interested in and excited for this game



nnodley said:
errorpwns said:
BasilZero said:
In the end....dont you think all the games are scripted in some way? Or what do you mean by "scripted"? o.O

Also lol @ OP, too excited xD?


Well yeah, all video games have to be scripted.  Got to tell the engine what to do.  NPCs are the same way.  The guy a page or two back described it perfectly.  Naughty Dog just made a really intricate system to fool people into thinking they were fully dynamic.  I still have yet to see any proof the gameplay is dynamic from the video.  It doesn't look very different from a lot of sneak based games (wrapping arms around someone and using them as a body shield) and looks similar to hitman.  It's dynamic in a sense, but it's still scripted.  Just you can chose different scripted events now, versus having to follow completely into a preselected series of scripts.  If anything I said makes sense.  

the thing is that I don't recall naughty dog ever saying that the AI were fully dynamic.  All I remember is Naughty dog saying that the game would be a wide linear game, meaning there are multiple ways to go through parts of the game.  Of course the AI is scripted, but they just have mutliple scripted events that are triggered by what the player does in the game. This is what I got from what I've heard about the game.

No they never said that.  Just some people are under the impression it's possible for it to be fully  dynamic. 

No, it's not that I don't want people to be excited for the game.  I'm just trying to better understand where these false claims people are making come from.



errorpwns said:
nnodley said:
errorpwns said:
BasilZero said:
In the end....dont you think all the games are scripted in some way? Or what do you mean by "scripted"? o.O

Also lol @ OP, too excited xD?


Well yeah, all video games have to be scripted.  Got to tell the engine what to do.  NPCs are the same way.  The guy a page or two back described it perfectly.  Naughty Dog just made a really intricate system to fool people into thinking they were fully dynamic.  I still have yet to see any proof the gameplay is dynamic from the video.  It doesn't look very different from a lot of sneak based games (wrapping arms around someone and using them as a body shield) and looks similar to hitman.  It's dynamic in a sense, but it's still scripted.  Just you can chose different scripted events now, versus having to follow completely into a preselected series of scripts.  If anything I said makes sense.  

the thing is that I don't recall naughty dog ever saying that the AI were fully dynamic.  All I remember is Naughty dog saying that the game would be a wide linear game, meaning there are multiple ways to go through parts of the game.  Of course the AI is scripted, but they just have mutliple scripted events that are triggered by what the player does in the game. This is what I got from what I've heard about the game.

No they never said that.  Just some people are under the impression it's possible for it to be fully  dynamic. 

No, it's not that I don't want people to be excited for the game.  I'm just trying to better understand where these false claims people are making come from.


which false claims specifically?