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Forums - Politics Discussion - US national debt hits $16 trillion! In other news, President Hu Jintao of China retires...

FrancisNobleman said:
16 trillion.

16 000 000 000 000

(I'm not sure of this, numerical nomenclature in the US is different from europe)


A trillion is a thousand billion

A billion is a thousand million

A million is a thousand thousand



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Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
nuckles87 said:

These jobs are only temporary, but as has been done in the past, these jobs are meant to only jump start the economy so that consumers will have the money to begin buying products again, and allow new private businesses to thrive, begin hiring more people to keep up with demand, so that when these public projects are finished workers will have places to go in the private sector.


The problem is... this has never worked.  BECAUSE said jobs are temporary.

The last 4 years have show that.  (As well as... pretty much every stimulus ever done.)

Buisnesses know said demand is temporary and as such won't expand due to it... because well...  they aren't stupid.

 

All it ever does, is temporarily boost GDP numbers for as long as spending goes, until something else completely increases demand and fixes the economy.

That's what's weird about all the calls of a "New New Deal."   If you ask Economists... 9 out of 10 will tell you the New New Deal failed... and the 10th will likely tell you it mostly failed until WW2 came along.

So you're saying we should nuke China

Shrewd...

In all seriousness there are a lot of factors in WW2 that might be unproduceable and any or all of them could be involed in the recovery after the great depression.

 

1)  Forced Austerity.  Everything was rationed and their was a social stigma against spending.   As we had to put most of our production towards tanks, bombs, planes and bullets, this meant less cars, and pretty much everything.   Things like nylons and cans and such were rationed because the matierals were needed for the war.  Lots of consumer goods were price controlled, but were near impossible to find/keep in stock.

How this may have effected the economy - After WW2, suddenly this stuff was widely available.  It was like these products came out as new for the first time ever.   There were YEARS worth of demand for cars that built up, as the car companies were all making Tanks.  Not to mention people leaving the army wanting to live it up.

 

2) Defacto Forced investment.   Due to the forced Austerity, there was pretty much nothing to do with your money... except invest it. 

 

 

How this helped - People put this money in the economy and warbonds, and further increased value and spending after WW2.

 

3) Free Trade.   After WW2 there was suddenly a HUGE increase in free trade, as Europe Japan and China needed things rebuilt, and the US and other untouched countires could supply it. 

 

How this may have helped - Products had new markets.  The US in particular became a huge exporter.  Argueably this is when US culture took it's root

 

4) WW2 put the fear of god into people.  - WW2 was ascary.

How this may have helped - a huge war that made people afraid of "evil controlling the world" is a great reason to convince people to live in the now.   Espiecally when suddenly there are single bomb that can wipe out big cities.  



The main problem now is we are going though... unforced personal austerity. None of the stimulus in the world is going to work, because what money people do get, they use to pay their debts or to save.

The average inflation rate is low....

HOWEVER, inflation for food gas and the like is sky high.

Why? They're needs... well and the global food crisis.


What needs to happen in my opinion, is people getting used to the economy, all the debt to get cleared out people go bankrupt, and then people finally being relaxed and willing to spend. Essentially "Things aren't going to be like during the bubble when everything was golden and you seemingly couldn't lose." Then consumer spending will return.

All we may be doing now is delay that process while people spend more on food, rent and essentials while the supply of what's bought doesn't increase, meaning no worker increase. Eventually these people still may collapse to debt as well.

Preventing bankruptcies helps people. Merely delaying bankruptcies hurts people, because people who are forced to start over are now older.

Additionally, I'd guess, this means that stimulus money is just going to naturally settle to the top, as people pay off their debts, and such... not really leading to much increased investment at the moment, as people just sit and wait because there just isn't many situations where smart loans make sense.


Once everything does calm down and people get used to it... we may see a Post WW2 style boom. Or we may see a Carter era hyper inflation.

I'd bet on the second. If only because of WW2's unique factors.

If your high on the stimulus theory. It's important to note they didn't just increase the money supply. Government also just built private companies a ton of factories. It wasn't that they just increased demand artificially, they artificially increased production capabilities.... while bringing supply to zero.

As such, companies had a huge reason to keep more factories open then they would have normally. Due to having zero stock. Though production did slow, and slow and slow, and many factories were shuttered.

The downside though was it HUGELY increased our debt to GDP ratio. This was solved by explosive GDP growth, but it seems unlikely we'd have such a burst in us again.



I can't wait until it goes up to $100 million.



spurgeonryan said:
oldschoolfool said:
I can't wait until it goes up to $100 million.


I cannot wait until it goes down to 100 million, then Bill Gates can just give the government a tip and we will be out of it.

 

 

FBI arrest Trenton, N.J., mayor on corruption charges

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/09/10/trenton-mayor-corruption-fbi-tony-mack/70000032/1?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=206567#.UE3-ACIrrkY

 

Good! Now start doing this to Senators, Presidents, and whoever else. Then go after the billionaire Rich who are funding all of it.

You mean bill gates great, great, grandson...

and literally give the government a tip, since at about that point 100 million dollars will probably be what the average person tips someone who makes your sandwich atsubway.



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spurgeonryan said:
oldschoolfool said:
I can't wait until it goes up to $100 million.


I cannot wait until it goes down to 100 million, then Bill Gates can just give the government a tip and we will be out of it.

 

 

FBI arrest Trenton, N.J., mayor on corruption charges

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/09/10/trenton-mayor-corruption-fbi-tony-mack/70000032/1?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=206567#.UE3-ACIrrkY

 

Good! Now start doing this to Senators, Presidents, and whoever else. Then go after the billionaire Rich who are funding all of it.

George Calin said it right, make the death penalty for all the accountants who launder money and see how fast crime goes down (In his case, drug dealers).



spurgeonryan said:


I think that would be extreme and I think that penalties for white collar crimes are already kind of high. But that is just my opinion. It is also my opinion that greed and corruption and these types of crimes are what is actually killing America. So I will have to reluctantly agree with you. Time to make these people actually worried that something bad will happen to them if they commit these crimes. That goes for billionaires as well.

Well the joke that Carlin made was that you can't imprison drug dealers since they're not afraid.  If they were afraid they wouldn't be dealing drugs, nor are they afraid of death.  But, threaten their accountants and see if drug dealers will deal if they can't hide their money.  You'll cut drug traffic down.  So in this case, cut down on money laundering, and threaten the rich who do everything they can to avoid taxes and see how fast the debt will disappear.



spurgeonryan said:

Wow! Things are getting serious finally!

 

Fed to spend $40 billion a month on bond purchases to boost weak US economy, no end date set; leaves interest rates unchanged - ,

What does this mean?  Literally, how does government buying its own bonds help?



spurgeonryan said:

 

The Treasury Department said Tuesday that the national debt has topped $16 trillion, the result of chronic government deficits that have poured more than $50,000 worth of red ink onto federal ledgers for every man, woman and child in the United States.

The news was greeted with a round of press releases from Barack Obama's Republican rivals, who used the grim-but-expected news to criticize the president for the government's fiscal performance over his 3 1/2 years in office. Obama has presided over four straight years of trillion dollar-plus deficits after inheriting a weak economy from his predecessor, George W. Bush.

"We can no longer push off the tough decisions until tomorrow," said No. 2 House Republican Eric Cantor. "It's time to address the serious fiscal challenges we face and stop spending money we don't have." Last summer, Cantor dropped out of a set of budget talks hosted by Vice-President Joe Biden, citing the insistence of the White House on tax increases to help close deficits that require the government to borrow 33 cents of every dollar it spends.

The spiraling debt means that lawmakers and the eventual winner of the White House in November will have to pass a law early next year to raise the government's borrowing cap from the current ceiling of $16.39 trillion. Passing such legislation last year proved enormously difficult and the nation's credit rating suffered.

First, however, lawmakers will try during a post-election lame duck session to renew Bush-era tax cuts and head off a round of forced budget austerity as automatic budget cuts are scheduled in January to slam both the Pentagon and domestic programs. Those cuts were required by another failed set of budget talks last fall by a bipartisan "supercommittee."

Republican vice-presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin piled on as well.

"Of all the broken promises from President Obama, this is probably the worst one, because this debt is threatening jobs today, it's threatening prosperity today and it is guaranteeing that our children and grandchildren get a diminished future," Ryan told supporters in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Ryan was named to Obama's debt commission but voted against a proposal by its co-chairs. He declined an invitation by House Speaker John Boehner to try again on the supercommittee.

Republican Sen. Rob Portman of Ohio said: "This debt will not only be a liability for our kids and grandkids, but economists also tell us that it will limit economic growth and kill millions of jobs now and in the future." Portman was a member of last year's failed supercommittee, which deadlocked over taxes and cuts to popular benefit programs.

The debt topped the $16 trillion mark on Friday.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has said the government will likely reach its debt limit at the end of the year. However, Geithner has said he will be able to employ various "extraordinary measures" to keep the government operating until sometime early next year. Geithner would need to use these measures if Congress, as expected, fails to tackle the debt limit by year's end.

Last year's prolonged impasse between the Republican-dominated House and Democrats controlling the Senate and the White House contributed to a move by the ratings agency Standard & Poor's to lower America's AAA bond rating for the first time in the country's history, nudging it down a notch to AA+ for long-term securities.

Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney promises sharp spending cuts and a balanced budget by 2020 if he wins the White House, but has provided little detail about how that might be accomplished.

For his part, Obama advocates a combination of budget cuts and revenue increases. His proposals to hike taxes on upper income earners have been repeatedly rejected by Republicans, but he promises to insist on them if he wins re-election.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/us-national-debt-hits-16-trillion-republicans-blast-031301848.html

 

Here is a link saying who owns most of our debt!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/biggest-holders-of-us-gov-t-debt.html 

 

OH and President Hu Jintao is supposed to step down in October. Coincidence? I do not think so! :P

 

I think both Romney and Obama are lying sacks of shit! Too bad America will vote for one of them.... See bold above.

The national debt, or rather the debt held by the federal government, can seem somewhat far removed from affecting the daily person. However, there are some figures that might put it into perspective, such as that the common baby, born today, will pay an average $13,425 toward state government debt. Read more here.