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Forums - General - The burden of the Intellectual

Adinnieken said:
Runa216 said:

1 - There are no medical benefits to circumcision.  Plenty of studies have taken place.  for every potential disease the act protects against, it exposes the penis to just as many or more diseases and problems.  Not to mention it takes away sensitivity.  

2 - your opinion is irrelevant, you're wrong.  That's what this entire post is about.  Dude, Science doesn't lie. 

3 - dude, no. 

4 - Seriously?  that's racism, pure and simple. 

5 - doesn't matter, Evolution is still a real and observed biological phenomenon.  doesn't matter what religion has to say on the matter.

6 - so I didn't specify.  Climate Change IS man made.  Yes, the planet goes in cycles, but this 'cycle' is far more severe than any other cycle that has ever existed, and they've found huge levels of chemicals in the ice caps and glaciers over the past decades.  Even IF global warming is a myth, it wouldn't kill us to take precautions to make the planet a better place. 

7 - They are specifically designed to kill, it's what they were designed to do.  just becuase you CAN do other things with them doesn't mean that's what they were made to do. 

Arguing for the sake of arguing (especially when you're wrong or misguided on all of your points) makes you look rather silly. 

I will not be 'debating' these points further.  I've seen the science, I've read the research, there is no arguing any of these points.  I've even investigated all the supposed counter arguments to check them for authenticity, and while there's a little bit of evidence on the contrary, there's mountains of material supporting each claim.  There is no argument.  

And this is precisely what I'm getting at, people.  Every one of these points posted to me are the same nonsense 'double negatives' and 'false positives' that zealots are known to spew any time their argument is brought up, parroting it back becuase they heard it on fox news or whatever.  Science people, learn to science. 

Runa, the fact of the matter is there are situations where it is necessary and or appropriate to circumcise for health reasons of the child.  You can argue all you want against it, but if I'm a parent and my son frequently is getting urinary tract infections, or experiences phimosis or paraphimosis he's getting a circumcision if our doctor feels it's necessary.  Your opinion that it's barbaric doesn't matter.

Circumcised men make due.  Yes, uncircumcised men have the added benefit of the foreskin providing sensitivity, but the area where the foreskin once attached in uncircumcised men is equally sensitive.  The glans adjusts.  The human body, in that respect, is amazing.

Show me the science that proves your opinion is correct.  The only credible science that you can provide that remotely supports your opinion would relate to the levels of testosterone and estrogen during fetal development and or during puberty.  And so far, the only evidence supports the levels of estrogen in males being related to environment.  Even in children born with ambiguous genitalia you're often dealing with a hormone imbalance related to environment, not genetics.

Sexual orientation is an incredibly complex area, but some researchers have tried to find a single genetic or environmental cause for homosexuality. This now does not seem to be the case according to the latest findings (June 2008) from the world's largest study of twins.

The work was carried out by Dr Niklas Langstrom and colleagues at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and the studies were of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden. Many genetic studies use identical and non-identical twins to tease out genetic and environmental influences. Identical twins share the same genes and environment and non-identical twins share half their genes and all their environment. If there is a greater similarity in trait between identical twins compared to non-identical twins, genetic factors are deemed largely to be responsible. So if scientists observe that same-sex behaviour is more common amongst identical twins, then there must be genetic factors at work.

In this research the scientists asked all participants (same-gender twin pairs) about their sexual orientation and amount of same sex and opposite sex partners they had slept with

They found that genetics accounted for about 35 per cent of the differences between men in homosexual behaviour and non-shared environmental factors about 64 percent.

In homosexual women, 18 per cent of the variation in same-sex behaviour was accounted for by genetics, non-shared environment 64 percent and shared environment about 16 per cent. 

http://www.brighthub.com/science/genetics/articles/7033.aspx

Again, if homosexuality is a learned behavior, which the research strongly suggests than if desired the behavior could be unlearned.  Albeit with great difficulty.  I don't believe it to be an easily unlearned behavior, because once ingrained sexuality is a much stronger force than other behaviors that may be construed as bad.  Sexuality, regardless of the sex involved feels good.  Only when there is a negative associated with a behavior can one develop a need to change it.  And again, you can argue all you want, but the evidience suggest sexuality is largely environmental, therefore it is a behavior that is largely learned not genetic.

No, it isn't racism.  I defined absolutely no race to anything I said.  A stereo-type isn't racist just because a stereo-type largely involves a particular race.  Some people who use stereo-typing to define people may be racist, but a rapper being into gang and or drug culture isn't racist.  It's a stereo-type of a rapper.  There are more rappers that are into drug or gang culture than there are clean stereo-types.  So impressive in the need for rappers to be associated with either that some have actually claimed falsely to be a part of them.

There are lots of people who fail to overcome opinions that other people have.  They succumb to those opinions whether or not they are fair.  Racism may be involved, but whether that person falls prey to racism in that regard or not is an environmental issue, as I said, not a biological one.  This can also happen if they don't have the support structure to excell.  Again regardless of race.  Trust me, I've personally dealt with it in working with teenagers in Scotland.  A very white country where the primary issues are economics, opportunity, parental guidance to steer a kid right.  When more than 50% of a class drops out at 14/15 because no one in their family expects them to do more, to do better, you have an environmental issue.  When a person opts to take benefits over a job, even when they're offered one that would fulfill their economic needs, that's an environmental factor not a race one.  Again, not in the US, still Caucasian. 

As I said, and as you completely ignored, I wasn't speaking to exactly what yo were talking about but rather an environmental issue.  In some cases race may be involved, it isn't the limiting factor, but that doesn't mean race may not influence the limiting factors.

With regard to evolution, I wasn't arguing your point.  I was offering you a means of arguing the point to people who would argue it.  Those people at this point tend to be largely religious people who believe in creationism.  To each your own.  You can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

The argument regarding Global Warming has moved beyond myth, as most people tend to now argue between Global Warming being man-made or natural (cyclical).  Again, keep trying to attract those flies with vinegar though, I'm sure they'll come.

Nothing I said regarding guns was incorrect.  What a tool was intended for and how it is used are two very different things and the latter is a very valid point.  If a gun is used for hunting, to sustain oneself, than regardless of whether or not it was intended to kill, it doesn't make it a negative thing.  There is a very real benefit to its use. 

I'm neither wrong nor are my points invalid.  Unfortunately you're closed minded to opposing points of view even if they aren't fully contrary to your own.  You'd be sadly mistaken in calling me a zealot.  I'm a moderate Democrat, a progressive on social issues.  Just because my viewpoints don't mesh up with yours doesn't make me a zealot.  You remind of an evangelical minister in a documentary regarding the 2000 election between Bush and Gore, in which he described everyone who had a view point that didn't fit with his, even if they were Republicans as he was, as being Liberal (e.g. a Democrat). 

Just so, your opinion doesn't define me.  I'm a well read individual, who keeps up on the issues and facts.  As much as I possibly can.  Over MY 40 years, I've had the benefit of talking with many people, gay and straight, and learning their personal stories in order to form my own opinions, not to mention the data that has surfaced from research.  Thank you very much! 

Just to point out. Nowhere in that study did they talk about learned behaviour, just environment vs genetics. They also never mentioned choice. There are plenty of behaviours that can be consolidated because of environment without the will or choice of the person. Just in case you were trying to use it to argue that sexuality is a choice.



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Runa216 said:
Sorry about the delayed response, but I do have some small points to discuss about circumcision since some people seem insistent on its debatable benefits.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence supporting the benefits of circumcision. Yes, there certainly are reports that support the theory that circumcision prevents the spread of HIV and other STD's, as well as infection and penile cancer. However, there are ALSO reports to the contrary. This isn't like climate change where it's like 99% of all scientists in agreement that we are causing it, this is a 50/50 debate, and even the reports that do claim a correlation between circumcision and lower infection rates agree that the risk is still minimal.

Basically, since it's so close down the middle, with equal reports on both sides and no clearly defined, proven links (remember, scientists are pretty divided over the issue, there is no strong lean one way or another), and the potential benefits are tiny (like less than 1% decrease in transmission rates), it is evident that Circumcision basically boils down to personal preference. The potential benefits are infinitesimal, but the downsides are all but guaranteed. See, while the benefits are debated, it's almost unanimously agreed upon that an exposed glans decreases sensuality and does expose the penis to additional infections. The benefits are debated, but the setbacks and issues are pretty clear.

That leaves only society and religion as a reason to get cut at birth. Neither of which can really be argued. if everyone was getting cock piercings, would you think it 'right' to do it to your kid just to force him to fit in? Besides, nobody is gonna see his penis until he's at least of puberty age (ideally), and by then he should be able to decide for himself.

Also, as an additional middle finger aimed directly at those who support circumcision, a point to consider: HIV and other STD's don't just crop up from nowhere. you have to have sex or otherwise engage in some sort of activity with someone who has it...if you're stupid enough to not wear a condom, the TINY benefits are not gonna do much to save you. if you're having unprotected sex with someone with an STD, you deserve to transmit it, and you deserve to have your name immortalized in the Darwin Awards.

As for infection, it takes next to no energy to pull the skin back and clean it daily.

There are no good arguments to force circumcision on a child. If he wants to get it cut later in life, he can make that choice for himself, after all, he shouldn't be doing anything with his dick until he's old enough to know better anyway, and it's a human's rights violation to take that choice away from him and permanently alter his junk just because your god told you to or because it worked for you.

With this post you once again proved that you have no idea how scientific research works. Educate yourself a bit and you'll see.



Chrizum said:
Runa216 said:
Sorry about the delayed response, but I do have some small points to discuss about circumcision since some people seem insistent on its debatable benefits.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence supporting the benefits of circumcision. Yes, there certainly are reports that support the theory that circumcision prevents the spread of HIV and other STD's, as well as infection and penile cancer. However, there are ALSO reports to the contrary. This isn't like climate change where it's like 99% of all scientists in agreement that we are causing it, this is a 50/50 debate, and even the reports that do claim a correlation between circumcision and lower infection rates agree that the risk is still minimal.

Basically, since it's so close down the middle, with equal reports on both sides and no clearly defined, proven links (remember, scientists are pretty divided over the issue, there is no strong lean one way or another), and the potential benefits are tiny (like less than 1% decrease in transmission rates), it is evident that Circumcision basically boils down to personal preference. The potential benefits are infinitesimal, but the downsides are all but guaranteed. See, while the benefits are debated, it's almost unanimously agreed upon that an exposed glans decreases sensuality and does expose the penis to additional infections. The benefits are debated, but the setbacks and issues are pretty clear.

That leaves only society and religion as a reason to get cut at birth. Neither of which can really be argued. if everyone was getting cock piercings, would you think it 'right' to do it to your kid just to force him to fit in? Besides, nobody is gonna see his penis until he's at least of puberty age (ideally), and by then he should be able to decide for himself.

Also, as an additional middle finger aimed directly at those who support circumcision, a point to consider: HIV and other STD's don't just crop up from nowhere. you have to have sex or otherwise engage in some sort of activity with someone who has it...if you're stupid enough to not wear a condom, the TINY benefits are not gonna do much to save you. if you're having unprotected sex with someone with an STD, you deserve to transmit it, and you deserve to have your name immortalized in the Darwin Awards.

As for infection, it takes next to no energy to pull the skin back and clean it daily.

There are no good arguments to force circumcision on a child. If he wants to get it cut later in life, he can make that choice for himself, after all, he shouldn't be doing anything with his dick until he's old enough to know better anyway, and it's a human's rights violation to take that choice away from him and permanently alter his junk just because your god told you to or because it worked for you.

With this post you once again proved that you have no idea how scientific research works. Educate yourself a bit and you'll see.

If you say so.  



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