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Forums - Politics Discussion - If you feel that people on welfare and unemployed are lazy and shouldn't vote, vote Republican...

Mr Khan on 10 August 2012
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
The point is specific to Pennsylvania, but in PA, the voter ID law mandates that it has to be either a Driver's License, passport, or DMV-issued photo ID, because they have very strict requirements about what kind of ID it is. Other forms of identification are not valid. Such IDs are not universally required, as its different from your welfare ID or your medicare ID (which are invalid)

Some laws may be more progressive on the matter, but the PA law is classism.

I've got to ask...

how is it classism to require a free photo ID to vote.... and when like 99% of registed voters already have such ID?

Because the elderly, disabled, or very poor who may not have a car are the kinds of people most likely effected. You're targeting a lower class of people, people that the Republican leadership in this election have vocally voiced their contempt for in candid moments.

To think these laws are innocent in intent is a failure to read between the lines.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Kasz216 on 10 August 2012
spaceguy said:
Kasz216 said:
sperrico87 said:
Kasz216 said:

I think you kinda self defeated your own point there.

In the era where everyone keeps there money in banks, and buys stuff with debit cards... I'm not quite sure how a government ID would make us easier to track.

I mean... like I said, you pretty  much need a government ID to do ANYTHING in this country anyway.

Only way your going off the grid is if you get an under the table job, find someone who will rent you an apparentment under the table on an upfront basis (since you need ID to get an apartnment) and keep all your money under your matress.   Either that or go all "Survivalist" and go into the forrest some where.

I don't see how a government ID makes that any harder.  Since... you know... you could just throw it out.

It's not like you could stay off the grid and vote anyway, since you'd have to go to your precinct to do that... and they keep track of voting registration and who votes.  

So if the government really wanted to find you and knew you were going to vote... they'd just ambush you there.

No, I don't think I self-defeated my point at all.  I explained myself very clearly, and as you clearly illustrate, you do pretty much need a government ID under today's conditions.  Pretty sad sign of the times we live in, I'd say.   Where in the Constitution does it say each citizen should be handed out a government photo ID?  I understand the need for driver's licenses for the purposes of insurance and piloting a vehicle, but that is purely a state matter.  I do not see any purpose served whatsoever for the federal government to force everyone to carry a photo ID.  The only result that could come from it is a level of citizen control, and that is not a proper function of the federal government.

Maybe I'm getting your point wrong then but as far as I can tell it's...

"Voter ID laws shouldn't be legal because the government can track us everywhere we go already due to needing government issued identity to do pretty much anything important like have a job."

If they already can track you anywhere... there is no downside, since the only time the government ID is going to allow the goverment to track you when it couldn't before.... is when your voting....

and only if you are commiting voter fraud... presumibly with a fake voter ID.

 

Your concerns only seem valid is a world in which the laws for things are VASTLY different then they are today.

Voter Id laws should be illegal unless they make it free for the individual to get and access to the ID. Or it is a voter tax and under the constitution you can't charge people to vote. Meaning if I have to buy a ID to vote, you are taxing me to vote. If I have to drive 50 Miles to obtain that ID, you are charging me to vote.

So who cares about tracking. bush did a study between 2002-2008 and found 15 individual that actually did voter fraud and 10 accidentally voted twice< OLD PEOPLE sent in there vote and then voted again at the place. This was accross the whole country. So lets talk about the real issue. Most poor elderly people vote Democratically and they want to wipe the votes off to win. IT'S VOTER SUPPRESSION.

NO ONE IS ILLEGALLY VOTING, REPUBLICANS ALWAYS WIN WHEN THERE ARE LESS PEOPLE VOTING. So they know the best way to do that is make a ID that old people or the poor can't get to and even afford. Sorry if you can't understand this.

Based on your logic... if I have to drive to my polling place I have to pay to vote.

Also... Jimmy Carter was co chair of a study in 2005 that found a lot of voter fraud.

I think your confusing prosecuted voter fraud with detected voter fraud, and confusing both with actual voter fraud.

Voter Ids now are practically like trying to figure out wheter there is theft or not from a store that doesn't take inventory.  You aren't going to catch anyone, because it's nearly impossible to do so.



spaceguy on 10 August 2012
sethnintendo said:

Funny thing about the ID laws is that there is less than 500 known cases of fraud and most of the fraud is from absentee voting which usually favors Republicans.

Also, I just got laid off from Flextronics due to them losing their contracts.  They laid off almost all their contract employees while retaining most of the hired on employees.  Let me just say I worked my fucking ass off for that company for less than 11 dollars a hour which included the 3rd shift bonus.  Main point: USA manufacturing industry (especially in Texas) fucking sucks.



Yep bush did a investigation for 6 years and only came up with 15 cases I think it was. Just doing voter id laws in PA could prevent up to 750,000 people from voting. So 15 or 750,000. wow I wonder who's favor this falls into.



Kasz216 on 10 August 2012
sethnintendo said:

Funny thing about the ID laws is that there is less than 500 known cases of fraud (from all states in 10 years I believe) and most of the fraud is from absentee voting which usually favors Republicans. 

Considering Jimmy Carter in 2005 found 150,000 cases of one specific kind of voter fraud in Florida in one specific election....

I'm going to go ahead and guess your numbers are a bit off.



haxxiy on 10 August 2012

I'm at a loss here. What's all this ID fuss about? Could someone explain it to me?

Anyways here in Brazil and most of Latin America the support of the masses on welfare is an often used tactic to keep populist governments on power.Panem et circens at its simplest.



 

 

 

 

 

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spaceguy on 10 August 2012
Kasz216 said:
spaceguy said:
Kasz216 said:
sperrico87 said:
Kasz216 said:

I think you kinda self defeated your own point there.

In the era where everyone keeps there money in banks, and buys stuff with debit cards... I'm not quite sure how a government ID would make us easier to track.

I mean... like I said, you pretty  much need a government ID to do ANYTHING in this country anyway.

Only way your going off the grid is if you get an under the table job, find someone who will rent you an apparentment under the table on an upfront basis (since you need ID to get an apartnment) and keep all your money under your matress.   Either that or go all "Survivalist" and go into the forrest some where.

I don't see how a government ID makes that any harder.  Since... you know... you could just throw it out.

It's not like you could stay off the grid and vote anyway, since you'd have to go to your precinct to do that... and they keep track of voting registration and who votes.  

So if the government really wanted to find you and knew you were going to vote... they'd just ambush you there.

No, I don't think I self-defeated my point at all.  I explained myself very clearly, and as you clearly illustrate, you do pretty much need a government ID under today's conditions.  Pretty sad sign of the times we live in, I'd say.   Where in the Constitution does it say each citizen should be handed out a government photo ID?  I understand the need for driver's licenses for the purposes of insurance and piloting a vehicle, but that is purely a state matter.  I do not see any purpose served whatsoever for the federal government to force everyone to carry a photo ID.  The only result that could come from it is a level of citizen control, and that is not a proper function of the federal government.

Maybe I'm getting your point wrong then but as far as I can tell it's...

"Voter ID laws shouldn't be legal because the government can track us everywhere we go already due to needing government issued identity to do pretty much anything important like have a job."

If they already can track you anywhere... there is no downside, since the only time the government ID is going to allow the goverment to track you when it couldn't before.... is when your voting....

and only if you are commiting voter fraud... presumibly with a fake voter ID.

 

Your concerns only seem valid is a world in which the laws for things are VASTLY different then they are today.

Voter Id laws should be illegal unless they make it free for the individual to get and access to the ID. Or it is a voter tax and under the constitution you can't charge people to vote. Meaning if I have to buy a ID to vote, you are taxing me to vote. If I have to drive 50 Miles to obtain that ID, you are charging me to vote.

So who cares about tracking. bush did a study between 2002-2008 and found 15 individual that actually did voter fraud and 10 accidentally voted twice< OLD PEOPLE sent in there vote and then voted again at the place. This was accross the whole country. So lets talk about the real issue. Most poor elderly people vote Democratically and they want to wipe the votes off to win. IT'S VOTER SUPPRESSION.

NO ONE IS ILLEGALLY VOTING, REPUBLICANS ALWAYS WIN WHEN THERE ARE LESS PEOPLE VOTING. So they know the best way to do that is make a ID that old people or the poor can't get to and even afford. Sorry if you can't understand this.

Based on your logic... if I have to drive to my polling place I have to pay to vote.

Also... Jimmy Carter was co chair of a study in 2005 that found a lot of voter fraud.

I think your confusing prosecuted voter fraud with detected voter fraud, and confusing both with actual voter fraud.

Voter Ids now are practically like trying to figure out wheter there is theft or not from a store that doesn't take inventory.  You aren't going to catch anyone, because it's nearly impossible to do so.

I think you seem to think old people have cars and just all this sh-t. I'm going to just disagree with you as always. Wow you fall for any gimmick. Funny that all the rights do is work off hate, not how to fix but how to hate and destroy any ones possibilities.

THis is what the right is good at. make up a story over blow the sh-t out of it, Get there base made ass hell or jelouse at someone else and then do what they do good, f-ck the middle class in there a--. GOOD OLD BUSH DID IT WELL> You WANT TO CRASH AND HAVE WALL ST. OWN YOUR ARSE. VOTE REPUBLICAN.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/03/gop-fictional-voter-fraud-charges-aim-to-keeping-democrats-from-voting/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57467195-503544/stringent-voter-id-law-in-pa-could-prevent-750000-from-voting/



sethnintendo on 10 August 2012
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:

Funny thing about the ID laws is that there is less than 500 known cases of fraud (from all states in 10 years I believe) and most of the fraud is from absentee voting which usually favors Republicans. 

Considering Jimmy Carter in 2005 found 150,000 cases of one specific kind of voter fraud in Florida in one specific election....

I'm going to go ahead and guess your numbers are a bit off.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/08/jon-stewart-voter-id-laws-like-leash-laws-for-unicorns/

"Conservatives have described voter fraud as a “serious threat to democracy.” But even the National Republican Lawyers Association, which supports voter ID laws, was only able to find 340 cases of voter fraud over a ten year period.

“Oh, my god. That’s almost .7 cases per state per year,” Stewart said. “And it also includes registration fraud, registering the wrong address, writing Mickey Mouse on a petition — which voter ID would not address.”

 

You have some sources for Jimmy Carter finding 150,000 cases of fraud? I'm going to go with Jon Stewart considering this is coming from the National Republican Lawyers Association.  I am sure they would side with Carter if there was 150k cases in one year. 

If anything it is Republicans that practice fraud by trying to deem law abiding citizens as felons just because they have the same or similar name.  They group together and purge voters even if they aren't felons.  This happened in Florida in 2000 which probably helped good old W get elected along with the Supreme Court giving him the presidency by stopping the recount.  I believe they are trying to do the same crap again (voter purge even if not a felon).



spaceguy on 10 August 2012
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:

Funny thing about the ID laws is that there is less than 500 known cases of fraud (from all states in 10 years I believe) and most of the fraud is from absentee voting which usually favors Republicans. 

Considering Jimmy Carter in 2005 found 150,000 cases of one specific kind of voter fraud in Florida in one specific election....

I'm going to go ahead and guess your numbers are a bit off.


YOU ARE FULL OF IT. 150,000, THAT NUMBER IS WHERE FROM WHAT RIGHT WING REPORT FUNDED  BY KOCH BROTHERS. LOL



Kasz216 on 10 August 2012
spaceguy said:
Kasz216 said:
spaceguy said:
Kasz216 said:
sperrico87 said:
Kasz216 said:

I think you kinda self defeated your own point there.

In the era where everyone keeps there money in banks, and buys stuff with debit cards... I'm not quite sure how a government ID would make us easier to track.

I mean... like I said, you pretty  much need a government ID to do ANYTHING in this country anyway.

Only way your going off the grid is if you get an under the table job, find someone who will rent you an apparentment under the table on an upfront basis (since you need ID to get an apartnment) and keep all your money under your matress.   Either that or go all "Survivalist" and go into the forrest some where.

I don't see how a government ID makes that any harder.  Since... you know... you could just throw it out.

It's not like you could stay off the grid and vote anyway, since you'd have to go to your precinct to do that... and they keep track of voting registration and who votes.  

So if the government really wanted to find you and knew you were going to vote... they'd just ambush you there.

No, I don't think I self-defeated my point at all.  I explained myself very clearly, and as you clearly illustrate, you do pretty much need a government ID under today's conditions.  Pretty sad sign of the times we live in, I'd say.   Where in the Constitution does it say each citizen should be handed out a government photo ID?  I understand the need for driver's licenses for the purposes of insurance and piloting a vehicle, but that is purely a state matter.  I do not see any purpose served whatsoever for the federal government to force everyone to carry a photo ID.  The only result that could come from it is a level of citizen control, and that is not a proper function of the federal government.

Maybe I'm getting your point wrong then but as far as I can tell it's...

"Voter ID laws shouldn't be legal because the government can track us everywhere we go already due to needing government issued identity to do pretty much anything important like have a job."

If they already can track you anywhere... there is no downside, since the only time the government ID is going to allow the goverment to track you when it couldn't before.... is when your voting....

and only if you are commiting voter fraud... presumibly with a fake voter ID.

 

Your concerns only seem valid is a world in which the laws for things are VASTLY different then they are today.

Voter Id laws should be illegal unless they make it free for the individual to get and access to the ID. Or it is a voter tax and under the constitution you can't charge people to vote. Meaning if I have to buy a ID to vote, you are taxing me to vote. If I have to drive 50 Miles to obtain that ID, you are charging me to vote.

So who cares about tracking. bush did a study between 2002-2008 and found 15 individual that actually did voter fraud and 10 accidentally voted twice< OLD PEOPLE sent in there vote and then voted again at the place. This was accross the whole country. So lets talk about the real issue. Most poor elderly people vote Democratically and they want to wipe the votes off to win. IT'S VOTER SUPPRESSION.

NO ONE IS ILLEGALLY VOTING, REPUBLICANS ALWAYS WIN WHEN THERE ARE LESS PEOPLE VOTING. So they know the best way to do that is make a ID that old people or the poor can't get to and even afford. Sorry if you can't understand this.

Based on your logic... if I have to drive to my polling place I have to pay to vote.

Also... Jimmy Carter was co chair of a study in 2005 that found a lot of voter fraud.

I think your confusing prosecuted voter fraud with detected voter fraud, and confusing both with actual voter fraud.

Voter Ids now are practically like trying to figure out wheter there is theft or not from a store that doesn't take inventory.  You aren't going to catch anyone, because it's nearly impossible to do so.

I think you seem to think old people have cars and just all this sh-t. I'm going to just disagree with you as always. Wow you fall for any gimmick. Funny that all the rights do is work off hate, not how to fix but how to hate and destroy any ones possibilities.

THis is what the right is good at. make up a story over blow the sh-t out of it, Get there base made ass hell or jelouse at someone else and then do what they do good, f-ck the middle class in there a--. GOOD OLD BUSH DID IT WELL> You WANT TO CRASH AND HAVE WALL ST. OWN YOUR ARSE. VOTE REPUBLICAN.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/03/gop-fictional-voter-fraud-charges-aim-to-keeping-democrats-from-voting/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57467195-503544/stringent-voter-id-law-in-pa-could-prevent-750000-from-voting/

Man, you need to calm down.  The only reason I'm not moderating you for that is because it was a direct reply to me.

Your going to end up with a permaban if you don't learn how to debate things rationally rather then flying into silly hyperbole the minute someone posts rationale facts you disagree with.

 

Also, I never voted for a Republican in my life... and I'm not going to this election either.   I'm just someone who tends to follow the facts and call out silly hyperpartisian claims.



Kasz216 on 10 August 2012
sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:

Funny thing about the ID laws is that there is less than 500 known cases of fraud (from all states in 10 years I believe) and most of the fraud is from absentee voting which usually favors Republicans. 

Considering Jimmy Carter in 2005 found 150,000 cases of one specific kind of voter fraud in Florida in one specific election....

I'm going to go ahead and guess your numbers are a bit off.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/08/jon-stewart-voter-id-laws-like-leash-laws-for-unicorns/

 

"Conservatives have described voter fraud as a “serious threat to democracy.” But even the National Republican Lawyers Association, which supports voter ID laws, was only able to find 340 cases of voter fraud over a ten year period.

“Oh, my god. That’s almost .7 cases per state per year,” Stewart said. “And it also includes registration fraud, registering the wrong address, writing Mickey Mouse on a petition — which voter ID would not address.”

 

You have some sources for Jimmy Carter finding 150,000 cases of fraud? I'm going to go with Jon Stewart considering this is coming from the National Republican Lawyers Association.  I am sure they would side with Carter if there was 150k cases in one year.

Yeah the National Commission on Federal Election Reform's 2005 report.

Though actually, i've got to admit I made a mistake.

It wasn't that 150,000 cases of fraud were detected.

It was that 1,700 of that particular kind of fraud was detected... and that 140,000 cases could of happened. (or did, if anyone hitched a ride.)

There were 60,000 cases in the Two Virginias... however. 

 

There is a reason Jimmy Carter is for Voter ID Laws.

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/editorials_speeches/voter_id.html


I can see having issues about throwing them in immediatly and expecting people to figure it all out within two years or so....

however being agaisnt voting laws in general?  That's just unconsionable.

Democrats shouldn't be figthing voter registration... they should be promoting ways for it to work better for them.